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Wednesday, 26 Adar I, 5784
  |  March 6, 2024

30 Practical Tips for Successful Dating

Veteran shadchan and dating coach Toby Lieder shares 30 practical tips for successful dating - from scrubbing your social media, discussing a fee, being on time, structuring the date and what to say when returning back home. Full Story

Photo: Debby Hudson/Unsplash

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Fee
January 5, 2023 12:55 am

How in the world does the potential fee worked out in advance relate to having a successful date?

Open discussion
Reply to  Fee
January 5, 2023 4:05 am

Being upfront and transparent with fees / Shadchanus if it works out.. sounds reasonable

Yes, but
Reply to  Open discussion
January 5, 2023 8:53 am

Yes, but that’s between the individual and the shadchan. It has nothing to do with successful dating as far as the two individuals are concerned. Should be part of a different article about how to properly deal with a shadchan.

Jacob
Reply to  Yes, but
January 5, 2023 11:07 pm

Agreed

Rivkah Leah Bernath
Reply to  Open discussion
January 5, 2023 10:47 am

He is showing appreciation. If he does that to someone working for him, imagine how much he will appreciate his wife.I’ve been in different roles in shidduchim over the last 18 years. As a mother, as a shidduch group member, as a coach, as a researcher, and as a shadchan.
Any man that walked into my house for an interview with a gift became a wonderful husband. It is telling. They stood out. It wasn’t many.

Exactly
Reply to  Fee
January 5, 2023 7:10 am

Exactly

Potential fee responds
Reply to  Fee
January 6, 2023 12:18 am

What the sugesstion was. In order to avoid disappointments and unexpected suprise fees of the shadchan when a couple gets engaged it is merely a sugesstion as I see it as a tip, that the shadchonis fee should be discussed and agreed before dating. It’s just another dating tip. What’s the big deal. This avoids confusion and a more peaceful outcome

Ok ok
January 5, 2023 1:00 am

Enough already.

huh
Reply to  Ok ok
January 5, 2023 1:12 am

its never enough so long theres a shiduch crisis
show a little care for others…

shiduch crisis???
Reply to  huh
January 6, 2023 1:09 pm

Really? You think theirs a shiduch crisis? The whole world is made up of millions of singles looking for their other potential half’s. You say bc 2 kids that don’t know each other and are not committing with in 2 weeks to spend their rest of days together then theirs a CRISIS????! That’s only part of why I say enough already. And believe me I’m one of the most qualified one to give my opinion on the angles situation.

What do you mean?
Reply to  Ok ok
January 5, 2023 4:04 am

Maybe you don’t know what’s it’s like to be struggling in Shidduchim – this article actually gives a lot of clarity and support to those of us who are in Shidduchim

Please think before you post a mindless comment

Not mindless
Reply to  What do you mean?
January 5, 2023 11:22 pm

I’ve been in shudduchim for a while and I also think “enough already” every time i see ANOTHER article about shidduchim. I hate that frum people identify and value me by my marital status and am sick of hearing and reading about shidduchim EVERY SINGLE DAY.
But I understand that others, such as yourself, disagree with me and do enjoy these articles. please try to understand our side.

I will say, to her benefit, Toby Lieder does have wise advice to share.

To not mindless
Reply to  Not mindless
January 6, 2023 12:27 am

I’m so sorry you feel this way about a constant barrage of shidduchim articles! I understand. It can be extremely boring or overdone for someone that doesn’t want to hear it any more. Perhaps from a place of pain etc. and expressing yourself is fine. But why so bitter? Isn’t more information more education? What bothers you so much? Why can’t an innocent sharing of tips to help enhance a shidduch dating experience bothering you enough to write about it? She’s only trying to help

Tool box
Reply to  What do you mean?
January 6, 2023 12:22 am

The intention of the editor of this article was merely to give everyone a toolbox of small ideas that make a difference when using them. Like tools in a tool box. She is merely sharing tools that were used to enhance one’s dating experience and sharing the tools that worked. You can be nice and appreciate this and just select tools from her toolbox that you like and discard the others. Why do you have to nitpick and find fault in what someone was trying to share that may help!

Thanks for these excellent tips!
January 5, 2023 2:06 am

So generous of you to share, amounting to a free consultation! Tizki L’Mitzvos, Mrs. Lieder!

Awful
January 5, 2023 4:06 am

Totally disagree with so many of theses

How about sharing your thoughts
Reply to  Awful
January 5, 2023 12:11 pm

Maybe your ideas will help others

Please share
Reply to  Awful
January 5, 2023 12:17 pm

Can you name a few and why? Genuinely curious about other viewpoints.

To Awful
Reply to  Awful
January 6, 2023 12:28 am

Even if one tip helped another Yis it is not worth putting an article as such?
The whole point was to share ideas that may help. What’s the negativity for?

Great article
January 5, 2023 4:08 am

Thank you for sharing this. I would add 2 things: 1. being responsive to Shadchanim, it’s always easier to work with singles who are quickly in touch whether it’s a yes or no
2. Shadchanim to speak directly with singles (especially older singles) to remove the misunderstandings that often occur when there are too many people involved

To great article
Reply to  Great article
January 6, 2023 12:32 am

100% agree. There’s tip #31. Please give your reply asap and do not take a week to respond if you want to continue dating or not! Same goes for research. Tip #32. When your sugessted a name. Don’t take a week or 2 to come back with your research results!! Please make it 24-48 hours max. It’s torture on the other side to have to wait a week or even 2 sometimes and get a no at the end! If we put it as a priority we can have our answers in a day or 2. Not weeks! That’s laziness… Read more »

Thank you Mrs Lieder!
January 5, 2023 4:09 am

I’ve personally worked with Mrs Lieder and happy to say that it was one of the best decisions I made – thank you for being there for singles and giving us direction and hope!

C.M

To thank you Mrs Lieder
Reply to  Thank you Mrs Lieder!
January 6, 2023 12:34 am

Nice to hear words of praise. Really
Thanks for Hakoros Hatov
We need more of that

No texting
January 5, 2023 4:11 am

Couldn’t agree more! Sadly ruins many potential Shidduchim bc of misinterpretation or misunderstandings 🙁

Little kid
January 5, 2023 4:25 am

I thought we dont eat food on a date in chabad

To little kid
Reply to  Little kid
January 6, 2023 12:36 am

What is wrong with being prepared with some snacks in your car when taking a girl out on a date? Offerring her a snack and or a drink goes a very long way. It shows her more than your conversations. She is (even subconsciously) noticing your mentchlichkiet. A girl needs to feel safe and secure above many other important virtues a guy has to offer. Here’s your chance to make her feel cared for.

Wow
January 5, 2023 5:53 am

Why are most of these rules teaching men how to be decent human beings? Are they so childish that they don’t know how to listen when someone speaks or must be reminded to be thoughtful in advance of a date? Why are men treated like children, or do they sadly need this much direction? It appears the real issue here is quite apparent

It’s a big issue unfortunately
Reply to  Wow
January 5, 2023 10:20 am

Yes many men have been infantilized by their mothers and are unable to fully function on a daily basis. This is a man you should avoid marrying in the first place because you will end up being his mother and not have a spouse

Rivkah Leah Bernath
Reply to  Wow
January 5, 2023 10:39 am

Men and Women are different. A man (whether is a Brain Surgeon , A Rabbi or a Plumber) is straight forward about dating. If he likes what he sees, likes what he hears, likes the yiddishkeit he is interested. Women ,on the other hand need much more info than that. She has a list, most of which is never written down.( I.E., all of his list plus, what kind of provider is he, what kind of father will he make, will he make all the decisions or will my intellect be respected?, will I get to lead my household? Will… Read more »

To wow
Reply to  Wow
January 6, 2023 12:40 am

Only sometimes, Too many guys are working too hard on making a fine impression of them self, that they focus on how they appear to the girl talking all about themselves and their experiences. Forgetting that she too has what to share and they loose out shidduchim this way. It’s not a joke but this really happens. We need to remind the guys to listen to the other (by the way same visa versa) and really listen and acknowledge what the other is saying. I have been witness to too many potentially good shidduchim fall apart because one party didn’t… Read more »

Forever grateful to toby
January 5, 2023 6:31 am

Toby helped us so much through our dating process. Not only did she give us her time, she gave us her heart and dedication. You can tell she truly cared. I know I could have found my Bashert through anyone but I’m so grateful I found it through Toby. She really helped me be certain about what I wanted, and once I made the decision it was with my whole being. Her process is really unmatched.

Again, thank you Toby you forever changed our lives.

To forever grateful
Reply to  Forever grateful to toby
January 6, 2023 12:42 am

Yasher koiach for acknowledging and complimenting
It’s refreshing
Thank you

Should be obvious
January 5, 2023 8:50 am

The fact that most of these “tips” are just basic decency that any young man should know — but lots of bochurim don’t — is concerning enough. Maybe let them function in society a little and they will learn these things? But scrubbing social media, not for possible employers, but to hide your true self from the person you will potentially marry and raise a family with, is a deeply disturbing suggestion. Yes people have to not be idiots about what they post since the internet is forever, but if you have to “scrub” your social media, maybe it’s your… Read more »

Rivkah Leah Bernath
Reply to  Should be obvious
January 5, 2023 10:11 am

Social Media, Some of these accounts are many years old. I agree they should take off their older posts that don’t represent who he/she is today.

It's about first impressions. Not "hiding"
Reply to  Should be obvious
January 5, 2023 11:34 am

The idea of being aware of your social media is being aware of your first impression. Not about hiding who you are. It reflects them in some way, but not the full picture. When people see someone’s social media, they think they’re getting the full picture and can be turned off. When they’re on a date, they’re getting a more full picture, and then would understand where the social media is coming from with a broader understanding. Kind of like how a spouse might know awful stuff about you but s/he’s okay with it because s/he knows you by now.… Read more »

To should be obvious
Reply to  Should be obvious
January 6, 2023 12:47 am

What I’m sure she meant about scrubbing social media was. (I clarified and confirmed it) Many singles have Facebook pages of party n fun from when they were 14! When someone starts scrolling back to years ago it is not healthy to make a judgement based on their youthful teenage years of fun n play. Some stuff there maybe so outdated. The sugesstion was to clean up social media that is possible to (google you can’t) so you can give the correct impression of who you are today. I personally know Shidduchim that wouldn’t get passed the consideration, because the… Read more »

Embarrassed for the men
January 5, 2023 8:52 am

If a man doesn’t already have an awareness of the majority of these “tips,” then he probably shouldn’t be allowed to date.

To embarrassed for men
Reply to  Embarrassed for the men
January 6, 2023 12:49 am

This was an innocent share to help singles be aware of mabe even one thing they didn’t know before that now resonates as an important awareness. What’s wrong to share 30 possible ideas that even one may benefit from even one small idea?

You would also help a young person navigate, no?
Reply to  Embarrassed for the men
January 7, 2023 7:48 pm

I hear what you’re saying, and these suggestions in the article might be obvious to a mature, experienced man or woman, but in the Chassidic world, people marry very young and then mature together which is really quite beautiful. These are helpful hints for young people who can’t help but still be unaware of many things. But they’re trying, and this article is offering to help them.

Remember to say please and thank you
January 5, 2023 9:14 am

Why does a fully grown man need the same reminder I give to my little nieces and nephews? Get comfortable being single, ladies.

Rivkah Leah Bernath
Reply to  Remember to say please and thank you
January 5, 2023 10:07 am

More than 50% of the time,Men are more nervous then Women. When Women reject a man , or the man rejects her, she processes by talking to her mother, sister, bubby, friend. There is an unwritten gift that woman have given to each other.Which is you can talk about your disappointment as many times as you need. In contrast , men come back from a date and have been rejected or he has rejected her , the pain he feels is all inside them. They hold on to all the disappointment. They don’t talk it out. There are 2 pains.… Read more »

Great reminder
January 5, 2023 9:19 am

We treat men like children and allow them to get away with the bare minimum. Women, don’t lower your standards or settle for basic common curtesy that is expected of every decent human being.

Rivkah Leah Bernath
Reply to  Great reminder
January 5, 2023 9:57 am

My boys were 14 when they started going away for Yeshiva. When they came home we kept them away from any interaction with girls. As our children became adults , it was clear that my daughters were relationship makers and my sons not. Women are natural at relationships, Men are not. There are a few exceptions.

Oysh
Reply to  Rivkah Leah Bernath
January 5, 2023 12:38 pm

Another example of lowering expectations for men. Men can’t get away with being “bad at relationships” just because they’re men. Being born a male isn’t a get out of jail free card. Men are just as accountable for their behavior and actions as women.

What was your daughters' experience
Reply to  Rivkah Leah Bernath
January 5, 2023 8:27 pm

Did you send them away to Sem at 14? Did you keep them away from any form of male interaction when they came home? Did you bring them up with the expectation that things are just offered to them in life, or did they have to work for it? If you’re going to bring your children up in different environments, it’s not fair to compare them to each other.

All societal expectations
Reply to  Great reminder
January 5, 2023 11:25 am

You have to look at a person for who he IS not what he DOES. Nobody gave my husband some of these tips, so he didn’t know to do them. I decided to look past it and get to know him as a person, instead of being disgusted that these societal rules weren’t being kept. BH married such a kind and caring person. Men think differently than women and have different priorities and ways of interacting. It doesn’t mean he’s not a mench if he’s not keeping all the rules. You’re not giving him a chance for him, you’re doing… Read more »

Oh nooooo
Reply to  All societal expectations
January 5, 2023 12:34 pm

A persons actions speak louder than their words, or in your case, their passivity. Maybe you don’t care if you’re spouse hears you and sees you and treats you with respect, but I highly recommend that these requirements are met for the rest of the population. If someone says they respect women and then don’t defend womens rights, they are not who they say they are. If someone says they keep kosher and then eat a cheese burger, they are not who they say they are. A person is what they do. Your actions define you. Actions speak louder than… Read more »

Are you married? I suspect not.
Reply to  Oh nooooo
January 6, 2023 9:39 am

Being an excellent “dater” is quite different than and excellent husband. He might give YOU whatever you need and want once he gets to know YOU. The skills used for dating are barely used again. Maybe he did live in a rock, or maybe he lived in Israel, where it’s completely acceptable for a woman to hold her own door. My point is, if a guy for example drives away after dropping off a girl and didn’t get the memo to wait until she’s inside, he shouldn’t be written off. He might make the most caring husband but doesn’t know… Read more »

Are you married? I suspect not.
Reply to  Oh nooooo
January 6, 2023 9:49 am

Being an excellent “dater” is quite different than and excellent husband. He might give YOU whatever you need and want once he gets to know YOU. The skills used for dating are barely used again. Maybe he did live in a rock, or maybe he lived in Israel, where it’s completely acceptable for a woman to hold her own door. My point is, if a guy for example drives away after dropping off a girl and didn’t get the memo to wait until she’s inside, he shouldn’t be written off. He might make the most caring husband but doesn’t know… Read more »

Hold on...
Reply to  All societal expectations
January 5, 2023 12:50 pm

no one gave your husband the tip to say thank you and please? no one told him that it’s polite to hold the door? did he live under a rock before taking you out on a date?

Obviously
Reply to  Hold on...
January 6, 2023 9:37 am

Being an excellent “dater” is quite different than and excellent husband. He might give YOU whatever you need and want once he gets to know YOU. The skills used for dating are barely used again. Maybe he did live in a rock, or maybe he lived in Israel, where it’s completely acceptable for a woman to hold her own door. My point is, if a guy for example drives away after dropping off a girl and didn’t get the memo to wait until she’s inside, he shouldn’t be written off. He might make the most caring husband but doesn’t know… Read more »

With all due respect
January 5, 2023 10:35 am

Decent rapport is important however, it doesn’t seem appropriate or Tznius to me, for a single guy to compliment a single girl that he might not marry. Maybe on the last date after they decide to get engaged. Unless, it was already checked with a knowlegeable Mashpia/Rov, it seems appropriate to ask, how early on, can the first name be used.

First name?
Reply to  With all due respect
January 5, 2023 3:47 pm

I assume you’re in yeshivah. No woman wants to be called ‘Ms. XYZ’ on a date.

I wrote the comment and am a female
Reply to  First name?
January 5, 2023 5:46 pm

And although I’m older and married B”H, I would not have wanted any Bochur I was dating to call me by my first name on a date. I don’t think it was neccesary to call me by anything when I was dating. If Rabbonim think it’s fine, no problem.

Single girls beware
Reply to  With all due respect
January 6, 2023 2:04 am

Single girls, do not under any circumstances agree to marry a bochur who has never given you a compliment. He may be someone who will never compliment you later on either. If your interactions are so stilted that the idea of a first name or a compliment are too much familiarity, then the two of you have not developed a comfort level with each other. That is the most basic of levels to see if there’s a possibility of a relationship. Do not give the rest of your life to someone who won’t call you by your first name. You… Read more »

I'll disagree with #2
January 5, 2023 11:36 am

Resumes work like this: I dont need to send my whole life around when 90% of shatchanim have no intention of doing anything but just having someone else life story in their hands a d if they can use it for gossip, they will. All in the name of “just because we need them ” and we have no choice. Second: I barely was faced with a situation when a person who’s a friend or family freind for 30 years will offer – you need me as a reference, gladly. Most dont want to do it at all. And I’m… Read more »

Embarrassing.
January 5, 2023 11:42 am

If your in an age of dating and you don’t know simple things like these its really embarrassing, I don’t know if the yeshvah system failed you or your parents failed you but something needs to change, it’s demeaning for men to see an article like this but unfortunately I must agree that some men need to see this so proper conduct can be applied, I also want to point out that I’m assuming majority, if not this whole article is directed at men, but I think alot of it applies to woman also, (i.e social media accounts, rapport, listing,… Read more »

True, but...
Reply to  Embarrassing.
January 5, 2023 5:03 pm

A lot of bochurim coming into the ‘scene’ are fresh out of yeshiva/semicha where there is hardly any interaction with anyone outside of their yeshivah friends. When these boys leave home at 14 years old and dive head first into an environment that does not promote menchlichkait, due to the fact that everyone is 14 year old boys! While collectively no one has outgrown that mindset because it’s hard and there is no incentive to do so. Shidduchim are not among topics talked about in zal, it’s sort of a blissful ignorance that is not addressed until its time to… Read more »

really?
Reply to  True, but...
January 6, 2023 5:24 am

are boys actually not learning how to be kind and considerate people? but isn’t that the basis of all Judaism? How are they studying the Torah if they don’t first study the foundation of the Torah? And even if one was removed from all religious academia, one still picks up on all these “tips” just by walking outside their door

Bubble wrap
Reply to  True, but...
January 6, 2023 10:10 am

You’re right. They don’t have this issue as much in the Litvishe world, know why? Bec they teach Derech Eretz Kodmah l’Torah. Misnagdim stand up anytime someone with a bit of Talmud Chochom in them comes into the room .Lubavitchers don’t respect anyone but the Rebbe. I’ve been in both types of yeshivas & have had chabad rabbonim confirm to me as much.

Truth
Reply to  Bubble wrap
January 6, 2023 3:12 pm

I was lucky enough to attend Bais Yaakov and I could not believe the lack of derech eretz coming from the girls who attended BR

Mother of singles
January 5, 2023 11:46 am

This is excellent!!! I sent it to members of my family. Each point is a good reminder for all of us involved.

If only you knew ¿
January 5, 2023 12:16 pm

You people really have to decide if you care about todays bochurim or not.
You can’t leave someone for dead and expect him to perfect later on in life

A (man) of little words
Reply to  If only you knew ¿
January 5, 2023 12:34 pm

But it’s a real point
Most people couldn’t care about something till they need it and then they go looking for the best and complain that they can’t find it

And maybe men are just different and you will never fully grasp the way we work but most of them are much to caring for there own good they just can’t express it the way you want them to

Stop controlling start living

Disagree
January 5, 2023 3:44 pm

No texting during engagement? They’re about to get married!

To disagree
Reply to  Disagree
January 6, 2023 1:05 am

Too many heartache and shidduchim falling apart because of misinterpretations of what he or she meant but it didn’t come across right!
I know of 3 different engagements that fell apart because they didn’t pick up the phone to tell eachother the message but rather texted and it came out all wrong and hurtful which led one thing to another. It’s sad

Bubble wrap
Reply to  To disagree
January 6, 2023 10:07 am

These days we have voicenotes & emojis aplenty. If the miscommunications via text are so severe then maybe these ppl never should’ve been engaged in the first place. And if they’re mature enough to BE engaged then they should have the maturity to make phone calls when necessary.
Also, dating 5x then getting emgaged after 8 weeks is more of a reason then texting. Maybe we should stop rushing the process & let things happen a bit more organically.

That’s silly
Reply to  To disagree
January 6, 2023 2:33 pm

If something isn’t clear they should communicate and try to figure it out instead of breaking up. They’re ab to get married!

Bubble wrap
January 5, 2023 4:32 pm

After dealing with various shadchanim over the past decade, I can assure you that there’s a gross overstatement on the amount of work put in, at least regarding the general public (sure they’ll put in the work for an extremely desired candidate w/ money, yichus, etc), but your regular joe? Forget about it after 2 or 3 declined suggestions. Maybe shadchanim can start growing thicker skin instead of giving up on people bec they decline suggestions too often (for whatever the reason is, declining multiple suggestions is allowed)…You can’t throw poo at the wall & then complain when candidates don’t… Read more »

#18
January 5, 2023 6:47 pm

1/2 the girls I dated didn’t want me to walk them to the car and open the door for them. Clarify with the shadchan beforehand if they have a preference.

Girl
Reply to  #18
January 5, 2023 11:32 pm

Agreed. I was surprised by this tip. Myself and any girl i have spoken to thought it was unnecessary

To walk her up to the door. Or to the car
Reply to  #18
January 6, 2023 12:56 am

I’m sure if your living on Montgomery and kingston. It won’t be expected if anyone to hold the car door open or walk her up to her doorstep!
We are only suggesting when the location permits itself ofcourse!
Practical common sense

And using their first name
Again, common sense- only when it feels comfortable to. Don’t do anything that you don’t feel sits right in your gut. It’s a mere sugesstion that using one’s name is a nice gesture. Don’t do it if you don’t want to.

Mentschlich
Reply to  #18
January 6, 2023 2:12 am

If you were my son, I would tell you to do these things anyway. They’re the gentlemanly thing to do. We are thankfully decades past the time (in the 80’s as I recall) when women would get actively insulted by a man doing such things on their behalf. Everyone likes to be treated with respect. If you would do it for an elder, you can also do it for a woman you’re taking on a date.

Jacob
January 5, 2023 11:16 pm

Thank you for the article. Some good pointers however I believe that some of the advice given is misguidance. Doing things on a date to “look good” can be a form of deception. This can lead the potential partner to believe you are a certain way when you are not. I would go more with the natural way – the prospective partner can judge if this is something he/she can live with. Things like “opening the door” and “letting her do most of talking” – only do so if you can connect to those gestures otherwise this will lead to… Read more »

To jacob
Reply to  Jacob
January 6, 2023 12:57 am

Why does it look deceiving if one learns how to be a mentch?
Why can’t the singles start practicing to act like a mentch and eventually they’ll be it?

Response
Reply to  To jacob
January 7, 2023 5:20 pm

Because this is dating, not “start practicing”

No texting during dating or engagement
January 6, 2023 12:15 am

Except for technical purposes like sharing the address and time etc As a shadchan I have personally witnessed singles get entangled and even broken engagements, due to the misinterpretations and miscommunications from reading the others text message!! Texts are unemotional and very black n white! They cannot be fully read and understood the way the writer really intended it because of missing the body language and emotions! I say, please pick up the phone if there’s something you MUST say in a text! Texting has brought tons of singles into frustrated relationships that could have been avoidable if someone would… Read more »

Much appreciated!
January 7, 2023 7:33 pm

Excellent advice, thank you!

Highly recommended
January 7, 2023 11:37 pm

My friends and I have had various experiences with different shadchanim. We have all agreed that our experience with Mrs Lieder has been very positive! She is both a shadchan and dating coach which is very rare. Her unique interview helped me find my bashert!

X