By COLlive reporter
The offer by a veteran wedding photographer to professionally photograph single women for use in shidduch resumes has sparked a heated discussion in the comments on COLlive.com last week.
It has been a topic that has been raised in the past by Shliach Rabbi Yosef Chitrik, Dean of the Beit Chana Seminary in Tzfas who has educated generations of young Chabad women.
“The practice of sending photos is clearly the opposite of tznius, in addition to the personal injury to the girl,” he stated, adding that if a rov ruled it is permissible according to halacha, it is nevertheless “against the ways of chassidus.”
Rabbi Chitrik said he once received “a painful letter” from a former student who provided a photo of herself to a family inquiring about her for a shidduch for their son. After receiving the picture, they rejected the idea.
“She was very hurt,” Rabbi Chitrik noted. “She asked, how are they ruling her out without even meeting her or learning about her qualities and inner essence? In our era, when everything is forwarded and shared at the speed of light to the entire world, she also wondered how many additional eyes have seen her photo.”
“The Jewish nation has been around for thousands of years and its men and women have gotten engaged, married, and built beautiful homes without the sending of photos, and without WhatsApp, and without the boy knowing or seeing what the girl in question looks like before the meeting,” he added.
He said that in the past, it was the parents who would inquire of her friends about the looks of the girl, as is mentioned in Gemara. “A photo would have never been seen by the boy for his ‘inspection’, and of course not to a tomim,” he stated.
He speculated that “perhaps this is a cause why there are so many elder boys and girls who still didn’t find their match because an idea is turned down based on a photo (that has already been shared on groups…)”
Rabbi Chitrik said that if it were in his power, he would call on his students not to provide their photos for shidduch resumes. “Parents who want to find out about them will find other ways to inquire, and Hashem has many messengers.”
No good deed goes unpunished. A generous offer brings out criticism from all corners.
#1
Exactly, couldn’t agree more
No Photos No Shidduch, Period!
Why do they need a photo if they can meet in person??
everyone asks. they wont look at your resume without it
I completely agree! Thank you Rabbi Chitrik for bringing out this important message!!!
This is completely opposite of Tznius and it deeply bothered me!!!!
Thats very noble Rabbi Chitrik, and a good point made. Still, I am aware of a girl who was rejected from your seminary based on the photo (this was confirmed). Please practice the same and give girls a chance beyond the most external of elements. Much hatzlacha in your important work
Unfortunately there are issues in all areas… But with achdus and ahavas yisroel well win over it.
On the contrary, I think sems ask for pictures to see if the girl is tzniusdik and refined, not the same idea as for a Shidduch.
but the reason i ask for a picture is to see if the boy/ girl is aidel and tznius.
I know a girl that got rejected because she had big curly hair. She is a very chassidish and smart good girl. Yet she got rejected because of her looks. Because she was born with the curse of curly hair?!?
Everyone has their hang-ups, and if the boy/girl is honest that curly hair etc. is a turn off for them, then it would be a waste of time to meet.
And I know many shidduchim that happened thanks to a photo. Without it they would not have even considered bothering waiting time doing phone calls and research.
So it goes both ways
Documented reporting of unfortunate choices of action is different. That said, there needs to be seminaries that take in – and work on – all girls. That is an even bigger demand of chasidishkeit. Someone needs to do this, but it is a separate discussion.
🤔
“do as I say not as I do”
Yasher koiach Rabbi! So glad to here someone speak up for emes,Chashidishkait. It’s a no brainier that this isn’t tzneeus.
For many reasons
This may work in a perfect world but it is 2020. I remember shidduchim in the early 80’s. People would bring albums to the Shadchan so they can show a picture to the “other side”. Now, it is much easier to send a picture. And when people don’t want to send a picture, the “other side” can find pictures on their own online. So they may as well send a normal picture. 99% of people today ask for a picture. Who are we fooling? You may as well send a normal picture. It’s easy to say that t’s not chassidish….but… Read more »
who are we fooling, you ask? you are the one fooling yourself.
this has become the accepted norm, ‘just saying’.
well in that case, i dont think i would recommend you as a Shadchan. just saying.
yeah i think we’ll go back to the Shadchanim of the 80’s…
You might go to the shadchan of the 80 but people live in 2020
she IS a Shadchan from the 80’s, in case you didnt notice. just saying.
“Just saying”, if you rely on the Shadchanim of the 80’s, your children will still be single in the 80’s… 😉
If you dont send a normal picture then the other side will just find it on the web.
Better that there should be a nice professional picture on a resume, rather than people doing their own research on the internet or friends phones, to find pictures of the girl. Today, whether you like it or not, everyone looks for a picture so it’s better that it should be one that the girl approves of.
What would you prefer, a bochur turning down a girl before he meets her in person because he already knows that he doesn’t like her looks, or him turning her down after he meets her in person and spends time with her because he doesn’t like her looks? I don’t know about you, but the latter is far more insulting than the former. “Hey I got to know you and I think we get along, we shared some laughs and had a good time, but you just look too ugly for me to marry”. It’s far, far better to not… Read more »
I’ve b”H married off a few daughters to very chassidishe boys. They did not want to see pictures of the girl before meeting them but I still had to send pictures to their mothers. Everyone asks for pictures today.
I might get blasted for this comment, but I feel that it has not been addressed. When I have asked for a photo it wasn’t to judge the woman based on looks. It is for me to see how tsnius she dressed and this way I knew who I would be meeting. There have been times where the woman’s beauty was not captured in the photo ( i.e. she was far prettier in person than in the photo), and other times the opposite was true too. I never judged a person based on their looks. However, if they chose to… Read more »
… doesn’t make it right. The Frierdiker Rebbe said “Amerikeh iz nisht anderesh”, this doesn’t only mean America vs Russia, it means Chassidim have to live by chassidishe standards, not those of the goyim. By the goyim, external appearance is everything. So many standards have been thrown out the window in recent years, it’s horrifying to someone who remembers how things were as recently as the 80’s. How many “chassidishe” families now insist their children attend university? How many have a television? What is with all the yuppified eating establishments with a zillion varieties of fancy coffee and $5 muffins?… Read more »
what wrong with varieties of kosher cofee shops and 5$ muffins?
Whether for the good and for the bad, this is the norm. And we have a mensch who’s willing to take good pictures to make the girls chances better than her using a bad photo or the other side finding their own. This is how it is these days. If this is so , Rabbi Chitrik what you write, then why do seminaries ask for pictures for registration?
Should we stop sending pictures to seminaries and yeshivahs as well?
When I was looking for a Shidduch for my son, I wanted to see the girl not for her outer beauty, or weight, I wanted to see her personality, which is often displayed on the face. What if we just have the mother see it, but not the bochur?
The mother seeing the picture is probably the source of the problem.
It’s a fact, you can ask my d.i.l. I don’t think I even saw the picture before they went out!!
then men should take of men
and women should take of women
and people should learn to be respectful and not go showing the photos sent for shidduchim purposes to people that don’t even need to see them
Wasn’t the Rebbe against photographs even at a wedding? True, one is supposed to see the person before marriage but that is
more in person and after the shidduch is made.Many others also might see the picture alsoThere is also the problem of males gazing st pictures of females.
Pleasw write a source and not a thought.
Well done, Rabbi Chitrik! This is long overdue. Aside from the lack of tznius in this photo culture, you totally reassess someone when you meet them anyway, so there is no reason to demean our daughters this way.
You applaud the article, but you will continue to ask for pictures when it is your children.
From my experience it’s big helps to know the preson before little bit if she smile, happy, and of course how she צניעות.. True..
With most you can find online but some time no.
Honestly I think if someone doesn’t want to give so it’s mean maybe she doesn’t look good..
In the old time you have to call to u friends and ask how she looks.
I think for both side this big help.. And this works also for the girls
Better each side receives a professional photo than visit social media and find on their own. Ladies a gentleman clean up your social media photos as well.
100% correct
how about clean up inside where it counts and youll never have to go delete photos from social media in the first place
Bochur goes out with a woman without seeing her picture…and it turns out that it is a big surprise. The date is awkward, he tries his best to be positive but it is too much and both sides end up very hurt, angry and embarrassed in the end.
The boy could have likely said no after he met her
Bochurim should never been shown a picture of a girl.
As a mother I have never shown a picture of a shidduch to my children.
It’s frankly impossible not to provide a picture shadchanim insist on it but why are parents showing pictures to their sons/daughters?
The Menhahel of an institution that regularly turns down girls( with devestating effect on said girls ) based very often a picture ,should not be entering this debate . I am sure many girls and boys were given a shot at a shidduch based on a very flattering picture ,that presented them in a fairer light than in person !. Whilst I agree that there may well be a tznius issue (and here i beleive boys and girls should be asked to exchange photos ) ,this debate becomes ridiculous if one thinks a parent or single person rejects a shidduch… Read more »
This is dumb. You should be allowed to see what the person in question is going to look like before you go out! It’s not a blind date! It’s perfectly normal to be allowed to see the person you’re going to go out with, to get an idea of who he/she is. It’s better for a Shidduch to get rejected based on the picture than for it to get rejected after the first date once the boy/girl sees the other person and decides that she doesn’t look nice, etc. (Collive commentators, come at me, I wanna see what controversy you… Read more »
I totally agree!
The Menahel of an institution that for decades has rejected entrance to his institution (at a devestating cost to these girls )often based on a photograpph ,should not be weighing into this debate . I would suggest that there are as many girls and guys who have been accepted as a shidduch suggestion based on a photo that presents them in a more flattering light than in person,and then on the date they can let their personality and other qualities shine . I also would like to think that no parents or singles would outright reject a shidduch based on… Read more »
SO IT MAKES COMPLETE SENSE FOR THE PARENTS TO EXPEND ENORMOUS SUMS FOR THEIR SON TO MEET A GIRL IN A FAR FLUNG COUNTRY AND EMBARASS THAT GIRL, WITH THE STIGMA OF REJECTION, WHEN THE BOY TURNS UP ON THE FIRST DATE AND SEES A GIRL HE DOES NOT FIND SUITABLE.
VDAI LMAIVIN.
It’s fair for a guy to see a picture of a girl before he goes out with her..
The Seminary AND Yeshiva applications request a picture too!
When it works for you it’s ok??
Such hypocrisy.
But I still agree with Rabbi ChitriK!
this was a decade ago. We exchanged profiles, I had never looked at girls photos before, this time I was going to say no. I thought why not look at her facebook just in case. I saw she was a real person doing fun things and not a drag. Never looked back, best decision I ever made. But that I never would have gotten by looking at a staged photo on a profile. STaged photos only hurt and dont help
Blind dating doesn’t work anymore.
I believe that!
Pictures are not only meant to critique girls for seminary registration and approval.
Need I say more?
We didn’t ask for photos until we realized that overweight is a relative term. My sons weren’t looking for toothpick girls, but heavy was a deal-breaker for them. Since dates are much more expensive relative to 30 years ago, we had to ask for pictures. It’s also unfair to the girls to get their hopes up for nothing.
I have had a few children in shidduchim. Everybody asks for pictures (especially for girls) don’t kid yourselves! Here is an opportunity to have professional pictures (so maybe the girl won’t get rejected)!
They want their perspective back
Eretz
If they don’t give a good professional picture that will be for their benefit, parents will get pictures from friends that are not quality and don’t show the girl in her best form. I personally as mother of a bochur have gotten from relatives pictures of girls from phones that are bad quality and not posed that are going to be worse for the girl than a picture that they posed and prepared for. Everyone has pictures on their phone and it takes 1click to share. Better to have their hair and make up done and look good.And I never… Read more »
Gezheh is attractive.
Gezeh can make a bochers mind go wild.
Is it his fault? No.
It’s nature.
A touching poem. Thank you.
ya, real touching. i dont understand one word of it. gezh is attractive and can make a bachor go wild? what, pray tell, is that meant to mean?
I agree with you rabbi. But don’t you think this saves more embarrassment, waist of money, and time flying across the world to find a girl or boy that doesn’t find favor in your eyes!?!
Who knows – this may assist in finding their bashert, and weeding out ones that are not for him\her.
I agree with Rabbi Chitrick. I think that by even just asking for a picture is degrading. I never asked for a picture for my own children. You’re not marrying a statue but a human being
I agree, however
1. Practically speaking ppl ask for a picture so it may as well be a nice one
2. The picture is for the parents more than the boy
3. The photographer wasn’t saying people shd send pictures. From what I understood he was saying if you are anyway going to have a picture it may as well be a nice one
Unprecedented times call for unprecedented measures. If it is not against halacha, then you do what you can, to give a girl the opportunity to put her best foot forward, in the hope of finding a suitable shidduch. Perhaps 30 years ago this was not the accepted practice, well neither were resumes, but you know what, we all got our heads around it, and now it is common practice. A kindly photographer, who is giving of his time and expertise, to help girls in this very important aspect of their lives, should be applauded and appreciated.
That’s precisely the problem that’s draging our community to the ashes of modern garbage Lowering standards because “it’s not against Halacha” Why are nispoel from what’s happening on social media Aren’t you ashamed I personally know a few girls that who suffered majorly because their pictures weren’t “suitable enough” for the closed minded grube boys We really have to oiseidele our mindsets and stop ruining our lives with none sense the destruction that’s being caused is worse then hell I feel really bad for those suffering girls B’gashmius/b’ruchnius is all I can say Shame on all those who try deceiving… Read more »
a. if the picture werent suitable they would be rejected after the 1st date anyway
b. if they’re ”closed minded grubbe boys” as you ay the girl doesn’t want to marry them anyway.
So the parent can check if there are small not tznius words on the shirt of the individual, chas vshalom. Like a company name that is visible for everyone to see. That would be the most not tznius.
Yes then they should probably tell the shadchan to be mechanech her that it calls attention and she should take a new picture
😀
Wake up and smell the coffee. Shidduchim are being ruined by social media. The first thing people do when they hear a name is look them up. Then they say I don’t want someone who goes to the beach that way or dresses that way….tell your students that social media is wrong. Not the Shidduch picture. I said no to many girls who were supposedly chassidishe girls not on social media but when I saw their pictures their earrings may have been too long or skirts too short, nail polish too red…etc not because their nose was too long or… Read more »
Also – learn how to use social media MOMs…please… the amount of times my friends and i have received notifications on facebook that someone has liked one of our pictures from 3 years ago, and then a few days later we get calls that a boys interested or wants to look inot us… this boy who has the same last name as the facebook mom who liked our pics. if you dont want us (as ‘chassidishe girls’) to have social media, don’t go on it to look for pics or info either 😉
No photo, no chance. That’s the new reality, like it or hate it. So you naysayers have a choice: stick to your principles & wait for the phone to ring, or take a photo that presents you in your true light: no need to slather on make-up or get your nails done. Just take a nice photo of you looking pretty, happy & at ease. By the same token, I agree that young men should also provide photos. We never saw any of our future eidim (which was ok as they didn’t see photos of our girls!) But what’s good… Read more »
1) It is inappropriate to have to exchange photos. But the practical reality is unfortunately that it is usually asked for before a shidduch will be approved.
2) It is inappropriate for a male to be the photographer for a professional photography session of a woman. There are female photographers. But the practical reality is that this is often overlooked.
3) It is inappropriate to have men teaching in women’s high schools and seminaries. But the practical reality is that there is no high school or seminary that has woken up to this reality yet.
Please stop assuming that people are too stupid to choose what’s best for them.
Those who don’t want pictures, have the option to not send pictures.
Those who do want pictures, will now – thanks to the generosity of Mendel Myers – have the option to send better quality pictures.
Variety is the spice of life. Let’s not minimize of a variety of choices.
Lchaim.
I actually asked for a picture a few years back when I was i was in the “parsha”
My parents refused telling me that “chitzonius is not important”
The disaster that followed could have been avoided
Isn’t what chasidus stands for that the pnimiyus permeates the chitzoinius?
On the contrary pictures are the best option when it comes to tznius
I am a bit offended by this article
A CERTAIN SEMINARY… (NO NAMES) ASKS FOR 5 PICTURES. NOT ONE BUT 5. and then a girl gets rejected because her picture isn’t perfect but meanwhile her classmate is accepted when she has a not tzniusdike social media account.
when my sons are in shidduchim, the only time i show them a picture is when they are about to walk out the door to meet the girl. After all they should meet the right person. Otherwise the only person who sees the picture is me. it isn’t inappropriate to send a picture. it is inappropriate for bachurim to be looking at the pictures.
With all due respect, Rabbi Chitrik, you’re living in a different world.
Shidduchim with no pictures are a hard sell. This isn’t the age when you were in shidduchim, times have changed.
In fact, there should be pictures for bochurim, TOO !
No pictures = far less shidduchim = bachelors and spinsters.
Pictures = more shidduchim, PERIOD !!!
It amazes me how the frum world feels it is appropriate to call young men and women who are supposedly ready to get married…boys and girls! Boys and girls are CHILDREN. Children do not get married. Adults do. And adults are not referred to, anywhere else, as boys and girls. And no, it is not just semantics. It is an attitude that anyone unmarried is not a “real” adult which is problematic on so many levels. I have heard many older singles, women in their late 20s and 30s referred to as “girls” as they are not yet married. So… Read more »
when i first saw the announcement, i wondered whether it applied to “women” or only girls.
The idea sounds very pious but you should know that the gemorah says one should see the person they are marrying in order to make sure they are attracted to them. and one is allowed to look at a woman if one is looking with the intention of marrying them. plus it’s not a woman’s issue, many boys are rejected because of how they look too.
I meant to write that marriage is more than JUST looks rather than “more about looks” which implies the opposite of what I was trying to say!
I love how it’s all about how the women look.
Are men the only one with a care for looks?
Does it not matter to the women how they look?
Or are the women just more realistic and pnimiusdik?
Whereas I do agree with your statement, it is upsetting that your seminary and the others don’t practise the same guidelines. Why do all the seminaries ask for a photo on application. Yes it may not be for the same reason as men wanting photos, but the facts are still there. If you don’t want photos being used to judge a person, then the seminaries should practise the same thing.
thank you Mendel Meyers and Rabbi Chitrik for giving us something to speak about besides for corona!!!!
🙂
Pictures and resumes are not always completely honest people might lie about their height etc.
Makeup can cover up many pimples etc
If a girl has a face full of pimples, give her a chance and let her go out. he will fall for her character.
I got married over 30 years ago, and although there was no such thing as google and internet, people still asked for pictures. And if the people didn’t supply the shadchan with a picture, they would manage to get one even without the internet. My shadchan gave my husband such a terrible picture of me I was surprised he agreed to date me. But pictures were around then too. Only now, it is much easier to find through social media so it makes sense to supply the shadchan with a good picture that you like, rather than they find one… Read more »
Photos are submitted with seminary applications for technical reasons, visas etc. Not because the sem needs to know what the girl looks like.
(They request a passport photo)
That’s what the interview is for!!
If a guy rejects a girl according to her pucture, she should be happy not to marry such a person who acts all holy in yeshiva but when it comes to the looks of a girl he just falls into society
My friends and i are in our 20s and we think that this whole ‘picture on the resume’ should definitely be discussed but honestly if someone really wants to find a picture of a girl, they can find it. when someone suggests a name, the first thing one usually does is look them up – I also believe that putting a picture of yourself doesn’t make someone less chassidish… sorry but look at the world around, this is just how things are. of course someone can be judged for how they look – but whys it different to judge someone… Read more »
First. The Torah (and yes, in Jewish law) says that it’s the man’s obligation to seek a wife for himself (not his parents mitzvah). Second. In the end of Mishnayos Tanis it says: Rabbi Shimon ben Gamaliel said: There were no days of joy in Israel greater than the fifteenth of Av and Yom Kippur… and the daughters of Jerusalem would come out and dance in the vineyards. What would they say? (*) Young man, lift up your eyes and see what you choose for yourself. (**) Do not set your eyes on beauty but set your eyes on the… Read more »
Yoifi and Noeh have mostly to do with personality. Learning the Mishnah in the original will clarify this for you. The normal way of thinking up until 40 something years ago was in line with the Mishnah. Today’s “values” are not.
Ask any older yid, even those who were “traditional” what beauty and hamshochas halev are.
People are really cheating themselves. The Mishnah is clear to those who want to understand.
Clearly 95% of comments posted here are from people that do not understand this generation of people. Here is the truth from someone at the age of dating or whatever you choose to call it. I think it is absolutely necessary for there to be photos in a shiduch resume. The reason is when one is looking for a wife or a husband how they look plays a role and it is a justified role, the same way all other aspects are, the fact that people deny that is absurd, you cannot marry someone that you have no physical attraction… Read more »
I agree. I also think you shouldn’t have a resume at all. It’s poshut not tsnius to state your hobbies and personality. The things that does to a young Bochurs mind! Marriage is not about liking your spouse but creating a bayis mitzva and liking them for their personalities is just a distraction
How does this make sense ? . Where is the Gemara that says the point you have. I would love to look it up.
A agree! I wouldn’t check out a house I’m about to buy on a lifelong contract. I’ll buy it based on what the agent tells me because he knows best and he doesn’t have any interest in making money from the sale at all.
They might at first not find a certain “look” to be their ideal, but then start talking and really like the person and the looks grow on them. After 3 dates they may really like the person and see their feelings change.
By concentrating on pictures and yes, even asking for pictures, they’re only cheating themselves. People also look very, very different (often positively so – expressions, personality) in person than in a picture. So they’re double cheating themselves with pictures.
As an “older” Bocher in my single years I dated many girls that I would have not agreed to had I seen a picture. The time, the cost of travel and dates, the stress for a girl to go out on a date and later feel rejected is even worse than to be rejected by a picture only. -Everyone has a picture somewhere online today, social media, etc etc. Putting a good picture on your profile is your chance to make a good first impression. The other option is getting something from someone or see who tagged you on social… Read more »
I do think having good pictures helps
The resume/profile is just that- looks like job applications, so the picture puts a person to the paper
The school I work at requires all applicants to send in a picture. Why? It’s part of the ‘research’ on suitability of applicant- sounds like shidduch research to me….I suppose same is true of the above named seminary principal
Mothers- don’t post old photos that are so deceiving.
In the end, Hashem directs all shidduchim, and we trust in His process.
My brother married a very heavy set girl who is not naturally beautiful, my parents and siblings were shocked since there is a noticeable difference between them. He fell for her middos and they are off living a chassidish life with many kids, in a very solid loving relationship for almost 20 years, I wonder if he would have given her a chance if he saw her picture. On the other hand, I have some beyond beautiful friends who are the envy of many but have been divorced multiple times but have no problem getting married because of their looks.… Read more »
I’ve turned down shidduchen for my daughter based on a Bachur’s Facebook pages, as well as his siblings. If he’s taken a camp picture in his swimming gear or his siblings are not tznius or are too deep into modern concepts like attending college etc. I take all that into account. It isn’t superficial but shows on how committed to the Rebbe even his family is and how much they might interfere or have negative hashpa on my future grandchildren. So, yeah pictures and social media are important. My 2 cents – spend it wisely.
But it’s crucial to see if the boy has a beard….
Looks are important at the very beginning of a potential relationship maybe, but they are not the ‘whole’ person. A good personality, kindly nature, sense of humour, intelligence etc are far more important in the long-term.
If only people could know who will work for them. No one really knows from pictures and resume introductions. Two people clicking can only be discovered by actual personal interaction. Yes judging who to date by levels of observance is valid , but the rest is a wildcard .