Thursday, 17 Nisan, 5784
  |  April 25, 2024

That One Frum Kid in the Bunk

From the COLlive inbox: "My friends and I are preparing for the summer day camp experience at various Chabad Houses, but we're also dreading that wild frum kid who will be ruining it for the rest of the bunk." Full Story

Lunch and Learn Dedicated to Yartzeit of R’ Shloime Drimmer

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R’ Avraham Arye Leib Kuperman, 69, OBM

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Concerns Shiur daled bochur
May 3, 2023 12:16 am

@the rest of shiur daled, where are you?

It's shlichus season
Reply to  Concerns Shiur daled bochur
May 3, 2023 10:53 am

Also, we’re busy preparing for the upcoming summer. Guess what, we don’t just have one frum kid – our bunks are full of ’em!

As a previous counselor
May 3, 2023 12:56 am

💯 agreed. Kids should at least be spoken to about respect by their parents before camp.

Can confirm
May 3, 2023 1:26 am

I was a counselor in a chabad house day camp and i can confirm its true, and I’ll add that at least in the place I was in and im sure in many others as well that the rabbis kids can be misbehaved and self entitled that they can do what ever they want

Well written and true
May 3, 2023 1:45 am

I have heard the same from my daughters. Glad the topic was raised. Happy and healthy summer to all!

Unfortunately sometimes...
May 3, 2023 3:49 am

Sometimes, there is a lock/complete disconnection between the parents/shluchim and their kids, and it shows in their behaviors It happen to me at The Ohel, a bochur now married with a child called me a liar in front of others just because he did not see something which took place, he felt that it is ok his right/obligation to call someone a liar in public without any shame , a complete lock of education, real chutzpah It was very extremely embarrassing/painful to the point that i contact his parents out of town shluchim , the father reaction was i will… Read more »

Boy Oh Boy
Reply to  Unfortunately sometimes...
May 3, 2023 1:57 pm

I am really curious about the events that preceded your being called a liar. Please please fill us in. It sounds like a good story.

Peace to all
Reply to  Unfortunately sometimes...
May 14, 2023 12:32 am

As i read this tragedy, I struggle with this sad reality. The audaciousness of these “FRUM kids”, to dare call a contemporary the devastating title “liar” -although surely done not intending to have such a devastating, life altering affect- when said contemporary has stated a fact which has been indeed established as untrue is, in fact devastating. To prevent such occurences from repeating, i propose a solution. we, as a community, shall hereby ban the horrible term liar from our dictionary. we must blot this detrimental from every book, street sign, and religious text, so as to secure the futures… Read more »

a teacher over 45 yrs and still kicking:))
May 3, 2023 5:42 am

the ability is to look at each child and see them as a diamond ,BELIEVE IN THEM let them know you love them regardless . now taking the raw daw diamond and make it a polished looking like jem is the trick,  Each individual diamond we will need to polish differently ….some more in REFINING the behavior, some more help with doing wanting to do the mitzvos etc So as a counselor who was chosen , you have the zechus to do the this great job and see the rewards …. , i found with genuine true love the child… Read more »

May 3, 2023 5:47 am

This isn’t so much a reflection on camp. If true, it’s an indictment on our way of life. Our “pairos” are bigger behamos than public school kids. Did I hear you correctly?

To answer your question
Reply to  KleinKeppel
May 3, 2023 9:25 am

Yes. I have worked in both public schools and Jewish day schools, and the public school kids had way more derech eretz and kavod for the teachers and staff than the frum kids

There seems to be a problem
Reply to  KleinKeppel
May 3, 2023 9:57 am

And I noticed it in crown heights
Chas vesholom to call them derogatory words. They are all wonderful with powerful neshamos. But I question our chinuch. Why does it seem they are so entitled and wild

Frum Kids Matter too...
May 3, 2023 6:43 am

This is such a nonsensical article, you are complaining (as this generation of teens tend to often do) But more importantly, the fact that you are most probably treating this “From Kid” different from all the other kids is probably what is making him / her act up and act out. It’s about time that we focus and give the “From Kids” attention as well, they are all kids and they all deserve the same amount of fun and inclusivity. Stop discriminating agains these “From Kids” Because they get Yishkite all year round. Have you ever thought to think that… Read more »

Frum adults, too
Reply to  Frum Kids Matter too...
May 3, 2023 9:00 am

As a Chabad BT, none of my family is frum, just me. However, because I am already frum, no chabad shluchim want me as part of their community. You could say that recently I’ve been acting up (in the form of not wanting to go to shul, dreading shabbos, etc- I don’t feel a part of a community) but I think like this ”frum kid” I don’t feel seen or heard. It’s highly likely that the counselors (and shluchim in my case) favor the non-frum, and the reaction of the “frum kid” is behavioral issues, in hopes of getting attention.

REPLY: Frum Adults, too
Reply to  Frum adults, too
May 11, 2023 10:13 am

This is a broad generalization “no chabad shluchim want me as part of their community”. This is not true at all. I am also a Chabad BT, and I know it can feel that way at times. But you need to be comfortable with yourself. You don’t need to vie for others attention, you need to give yourself the attention and focus on your growth. Dreading Shabbos because you don’t feel apart of the community…your focus is on the wrong thing. Don’t fit in, and still learn to enjoy Shabbos, and then you’ll see, you will realize you do fit… Read more »

Reply to  Frum Kids Matter too...
May 3, 2023 11:18 am

What did she do to deserve such a beautiful rant? Obviously this a counselor who cares about people and wanted to share her thoughts on the matter, why not validate her feelings (instead of trying to defend yourself?) and then offer your thoughts on what the solutions or tips might be. Not to say what you wrote in your comment isn’t true (as we unfortunately see from the person who wrote the comment being a b”t.. 😥 But that’s brings up another whole topic, though intrinsically connected) and on the contrary, I believe your opinions go hand in hand, and… Read more »

May 3, 2023 6:46 am

This is marginalizing. I work with non frum kids every day and let me tell you, all kids are hard! This is such a stereotype. Maybe you have a hard time with the frum kids because you see a bit more of yourself in them… this just shows why more people need to be involved in chinuch

That frum kid. Hmm thoughts.
May 3, 2023 7:17 am

Even if this is at times true – what a horrible article and this is not the way to deal with it. And so much blatant “generalization” and “it happens here so it’s true everywhere.” Plus: A) a COL article won’t fix it B) talk to the parents or don’t go to the camp …. C) even that frum kid u could be helping in ways u don’t know. Shlichus isn’t only about what feels good. Sometimes we never know our impact. D) is ur solution that kid shouldn’t be welcome ? A special camp for the (uncool) wild frum… Read more »

Reply to  That frum kid. Hmm thoughts.
May 3, 2023 7:33 pm

Well said

Distraught camper
May 3, 2023 7:28 am

I am a victim to the above such and so therefore my parents sent me to another famous chabad camp the next year and it wasn’t much better it’s quite unfortunate and was not looking forward to the summers that came by, mainly attributed because of me being a newbie and coming from parents of baalei tshuvos. However the canteen in camp was what kept me going cheers to my parents allowing me to spend whatever I needed.

I hear you
May 3, 2023 7:31 am

But generalizing every single frum kid as being like this is a bit extreme. And generalizing every single not frum kid as being a perfect camper too.

Also sometimes kids feel that you treat them differently which may lead to acting out… everything you see is a mirror of yourself

Reply to  I hear you
May 3, 2023 10:58 am

She literally said 100 times that there are exceptions. She just said she noticed a pattern, she didn’t marginalize

Read the article next time 🙂

How about these teens
May 3, 2023 7:34 am

The counselors themselves are often so rude in their own setting of school, it wouldn’t be believed

Absolutely true
May 3, 2023 7:35 am

Unfortunately. The non frum kids are respectful, listen right away, stop doing whatever it is when you tell them to. The frum kids? Chutzpahdik brats. It’s so much more pleasant to do a gan Izzy than to deal with frum kids. I’m glad this is being brought up.

May 3, 2023 7:38 am

I’ve been a counselor with a frum bunk in a frum daycamp and had an overall really awful time with managing the rude, chutzpahdik, negative frum kids who couldn’t listen to authority to save their lives. The next year I did a gan Izzy and it was an absolute breeze. The kids listen immediately, are well behaved and respectful, and are such a pleasure to deal with.

Reply to  Yes
May 3, 2023 8:40 pm

what was the age difference? 😉

Maybe it’s just that they’re the directors kids ?
May 3, 2023 7:43 am

Kids of camp directors and rabbis have to sacrifice and share their parents time and attention , maybe they’re acting out because of it

May 3, 2023 7:47 am

I was a counselor for frum kids, and counted the days and hours until the end of camp. Literally gave me an appreciation/i-dont-know-how-they-do-it for teachers who have to handle thirty of these kids. And if this is how they are in camp, I don’t even wanna know how they are in school….when they are being forced to learn things they aren’t interested in….

May 3, 2023 7:59 am

I understand where you’re coming from, I don’t understand why you had to post a whole article about it. Yes frum kids in not frum bunks are hard. However many times these frum kids that go to day camps are on shlichus with no other frum kids. When you are their counselor you have to give them lots of positive attention and acknowledgement and maybe they won’t act so bad!

May 3, 2023 8:17 am

I’ll add that often it is the Rabbis kids, who feel they can do as they please with no consequences whatsoever.

Parents, if a teacher or counselor approaches you about your child’s behavior, please LISTEN and don’t come up with excuses for rudeness, unsafe behavior and vulgar language. Please stress to your children that they are responsible for their actions and yes there will be consequences for poor middos.

Let them know that if you run the school, it’s not a guaranteed thing they’ll get in. They have to go through the same process as everyone else.

Sad but true - make them your helper
May 3, 2023 8:17 am

I had a really tough only frum kid in the bunk, i worked on getting her to become my right hand, you are a shlucha here etc, and bH she changed completely,it worked out all amazing.
It’s over 40 yrs and we Still have a special connection!
Rabbi lew in a kinus yrs ago, spoke about making rowdy kids into mashpiim..
(I add, under your guidance)
Not nesecarily easy but its the best advice.

May 3, 2023 8:39 am

this couldn’t be more true. i have had the same experience and its definitely a problem

Let’s get the facts straight
May 3, 2023 8:52 am

Whoever disagrees with this hasn’t been a counselor in the last decade. This is well said and 100% accurate. This isn’t an attack on frum children; it’s a wake up call to frum parents.

This is sad
Reply to  Let’s get the facts straight
May 3, 2023 9:20 am

The writer is for-sure a crown heights girl who doesn’t understand the self confidence that a shliach child has on one pinky this counselor would never have
If you would not be a counselor who is worried about if you’re bread is more the a day old and wouldn’t drink milk out of a freezer
Your article would of said get ready to meet the children who have more self confidence then my crown heights parents

Reply to  This is sad
May 3, 2023 10:46 am

Bad middos = self confidence
Slavery = freedom
Day = night


Reply to  1984
May 3, 2023 8:54 pm

crown heights?

@this is sad
Reply to  This is sad
May 3, 2023 2:42 pm

I can only assume that you are a child yourself, because anyone above the age of maturity understands that a person with genuine self confidence treats others with respect.

Acting rudely and disrespectfully to others is often a sign of false bravado, a noisy “show” of confidence that hides inner feelings of worthlessness.

I think it’s good to be aware
Reply to  Let’s get the facts straight
May 3, 2023 10:00 am

Parents and teachers need to instill what’s called ‘Derech Eretz’
Things have flown way out of control
I’m talking about In Crown heights

Reply to  I think it’s good to be aware
May 3, 2023 11:19 am

Very true crown heights has turned into a place of every kid walking around with a vape in their hand or alchohol and its such a disgrace to the rebbe

today's chitas for kids
May 3, 2023 9:03 am

INYANA D’YOMA CHINUCH In this week’s parsha, Parshas Emor, we learn mitzvos that are special for kohanim. In the beginning of the parsha, Hashem says, “Emor El Hakohanim,” You should speak to the kohanim, “Ve’amarta Aleihem,” and you should say to them. Rashi brings a reason why it needs to say (twice) “Emor” AND “Ve’amarta.” The Chachomim teach that it is “Lehazhir Hagedolim Al Haketanim,” that the kohanim need to warn their children to be careful to follow the mitzvos of the kohanim, just like the adults. The word the Chachomim use is “Lehazhir,” to warn. Why don’t they use a word like “to teach” or “to tell”? The word “Lehazhir” can also mean light (like Zohar).… Read more »

Maybe look to frum camps?
May 3, 2023 9:29 am

Why are our kids running to work for these day camps, when our own Lubavich kids need staff! Yes, even the children of these shluchim are in our over night camps, and our camps are lacking staff!!!
Maybe it’s time our community looks in the mirror and says, a Chabad House camp can run with a few frum staff the guide the not frum staff, and OUR kids need our Lubavich teens to be their staff
Think about it!

We're raising kids poorly
May 3, 2023 9:33 am

When frum kids don’t know how to treat other human beings with derech eretz, we have a problem. I have siblings who transferred out of a chabad school because the girls were incredibly mean, total bullies, and they went to bais yaakov instead and loved it. their new classmates were kind and inclusive. It should be impossible to be a torah observant Jew and have no kavod for other human beings. I wish these camp counselors luck in finding other/better jobs this summer

Good point well said
Reply to  We're raising kids poorly
May 3, 2023 10:01 am

Last statement 1000000000 million percent %

Reply to  We're raising kids poorly
May 3, 2023 8:56 pm

im so sorry for your sisters experience, but ik of people who had the exact opposite experience, just saying

May 3, 2023 9:43 am

So ur kids have extra chayus? BH!!!! It needs to be directed.

Reply to  Chayus!
May 3, 2023 11:05 am

Maybe redirected which is a bit harder, but yes

Stop this nonsense.
May 3, 2023 9:48 am

Act like a mentsch. Does this really need to be an article?
“Non frum and frum kids in the same bunk.”
According to our Torah, there is no Jew who is not religious. ALL JEWS ARE BELIEVERS FROM BIRTH.” – the Rebbe

You are that kid
May 3, 2023 10:11 am

This is too funny as these teenage counselors are that frum kid in their school, that’s why they have such a hard time getting teachers. Look in the mirror. Look at the frum kids in camp like they’re you, how would you want to be treated when you misbehave at school? All those complaints you have about your teachers, now is the time to put into practice the right way to deal with it. Also, I don’t think it’s frum vs not, maybe it comes from the fact that it’s their parents camp so naturally they feel they’re in charge… Read more »

Reply to  You are that kid
May 3, 2023 8:56 pm

so true!

I can't belive this was written and published
May 3, 2023 10:35 am

 Did you every think that the counslers are the issues here ? Counselors who are not properly trained, or who lack the necessary experience, are unable to be counslers . In most cases, counselors are the ones doing something wrong that makes the children act out and this causes the children harm .

I disagree
Reply to  I can't belive this was written and published
May 3, 2023 12:00 pm

Yes the counselors are young but they can manage and handle all the other kids. It’s the rude, entitled kids who will not listen to authority figure. That’s where the problems lies.

Reply to  I can't belive this was written and published
May 4, 2023 11:30 pm

If you think the counselors are incapable, don’t send your kids to camp

May 3, 2023 10:37 am

The fact is: this frum kid has parents who might even be shluchim or shluchos who ARE THAT WAY BEHIND CLOSED DOORS, so why should they care if their child is this way?! The fault is at the parents – the article should be addressed on giving chinuch. Good luck with that. Certain parents are lost cases. I dont give up on them – they gave up on themselves because they refuse to change!

May 3, 2023 11:15 am

Many children in today’s generation especially in frum households are showing immense disrespect towards others, and the root of this issue often lies with the parents. It is crucial for parents to demonstrate positive behavior around their children and to teach them the importance of respect. Parents should be instilling values of empathy, kindness, and compassion within their children. Engaging in regular conversations and setting good examples can help children learn what respectful behavior looks like. By taking an active role in instilling respect and empathy, parents can help shape their children into happier, healthier individuals. as well as get… Read more »

Are these girls “that one frum kid” in their lives
May 3, 2023 11:29 am

Do we know who wrote this? Are these girls sure that they aren’t the ones who are setting the bad example of what frum girls are? I think the authors have a valid point, frum kids (and teens) often have a hard time with entitlement. I just think they need to think about it themselves. As frum girls, they should work on making themselves to be the best example of what frum girls should look like.

Chaim H
May 3, 2023 11:36 am

Remember you once was that kid. In fact, you yourself still might be that kid, be it at home, school/yeshiva and even as a staff member.

This is exactly why we shouldn’t have kids watching kids in camps.

so wrong
Reply to  Chaim H
May 3, 2023 12:01 pm

lets have you controlling your kids first then we can talk about counslers being kids as far as i know no one over the age of 18-19 wants to be a counselor anymore so you should start respecting the counselors of your children and treating them nicely for dealing with your disrespectful brats then start to call them kids

Old story!
May 3, 2023 11:49 am

Everyone knew this 35 years ago when I was a counselor.

Dear Misguided One
May 3, 2023 11:54 am

It’s these “wild” boys that can come out of camp with better midos. A well trained counselor can have an unbelievable positive affect on a child. A teacher has the same issues with chuzbadek kids regardless of their backgrounds. Children are a product of their environment and in both worlds you will have those that think they are privileged and desire to make themselves noticed. A frum child will see the world through Torah and that “wild” behavior will be used for a good purpose.

Reply to  Dear Misguided One
May 4, 2023 11:34 pm

What you wrote may hold truth to it, but why call the counselor “dear misguided one,” pray tell?

Chaim H
May 3, 2023 12:02 pm

Anyways, a smart and experience teacher, educator etc…..would learn to make that trouble maker in to an ally.

just saying...
May 3, 2023 12:32 pm

it would be wonderful for all the counselors to also ask themselves how they themselves behave in their classrooms

important for the campers to be respectful

important for the counselors to be respectful to their parents, teachers, and others they interact with as well

perhaps seeing the effect one child can have on a whole bunk when not cooperating in some way, can help some of these counselors more honestly reflect on their own actions and the effects of them

hatzlacha raba to everyone to bring out their own best selves and to bring out the best in others

May 3, 2023 3:42 pm

Kudos to the writers for a very thoughtful and respectfully written article, raising a problem without being judgemental and vindictive. Obviously what is being identified is a systemic problem that needs to be thought about; why are children from frum homes more likely to act this way? Does it have to do with growing up in a home with many siblings so they feel they need to “turn it up to 11” just to be noticed? Is there something in the culture at our schools that subtly teaches kids that this is the way to act? I have no answers,… Read more »

This has nothing to do with Frumkiet
Reply to  B"H
May 3, 2023 8:07 pm

Or large families. There are plenty Frum kids that are respectful – their parents are respectful. As you mentioned correctly, Just seeing how some parents are throwing the blame at the counselor, tells us a part of the problem. In many years of teaching, I don’t think I ever had a disrespectful kid, if the mother was respectful! It’s time to think deeply, parents, what can be done inwardly to set these values in your child. Yes, there are techniques that a counselor can learn to make the best of the situation, but stop shifting the blame!! P.s. It wouldn’t… Read more »

Past counselor current mother
May 3, 2023 5:41 pm

I urge the authors of this article to put themselves in the shoes of their campers and consider what they may be going through that would cause them to act this way. I was a counselor in day camps for many years and have found that if a child is acting out there is definitely an underlying issue that needs to be addressed.

Reply to  Past counselor current mother
May 4, 2023 9:58 am

The underlying issue is probably the environment at home

May 3, 2023 5:43 pm

I am honestly so worried for our future generations!!! How could we have come to this level that instead of trying to make change we jump straight on line to air our grievances!! This is not productive at all. Think before you type people!

Feeling heard
May 3, 2023 5:45 pm

As a counselor in many different day camps around the country, I have never related to an article more! Not only that but I’ve heard this from so many friends!

parents do you part
May 3, 2023 5:56 pm

A lot of parents are blaming the kids on the counselors. that the counselors aren’t doing a good enough job. maybe you (parents) should reflect on yourself and notice your flaws. if you were a good parent you should know how to use this cognitive skill and not blame your own child’s wrong doing on their 17 year old counselor. These counselors are doing the best they can, and if they can’t control your child, it is not the counselor’s fault. the counselors are often sending these kids to the office, and you are the ones getting called. you might… Read more »

Well said
Reply to  parents do you part
May 4, 2023 11:37 pm

Well said, well said

Kind of insulted
May 3, 2023 6:07 pm

As someone who grew being the frum kid in the bunk this article is kind of insulting. Like what in the world are you saying?! Kids are kids, some are rowdy some aren’t, deal with it. It’s not the frum kids that are rowdy and the non frum aren’t, all of them are you only see it that way since they are already and exception in the bunk. If you really think frum kids are the rowdy ones, your pretty much saying that being frum brings up bad kids.

Reply to  Kind of insulted
May 3, 2023 9:44 pm

Time to smell the coffee. The author is saying the truth and YES frum brings up bad kids! speaking about “frum” SPECIFICALLY from the lubavitch community. Im just wondering as being “that frum kid” hows your mother? Or how are all frum mothers? Do you give her/them derech eretz? Should I ask that question a second time or you know the answer?

what a horrible thing to say
Reply to  Um..
May 4, 2023 1:15 am

what a horrible thing to say: that “frum brings up bad kids”

everyone has things to work, including you

please start by how you talk about people, thank you

Where they're coming from
May 3, 2023 9:38 pm

The frum kids may be very behind the scenes, seeing camp as less of a system and more of a home, having scene the entire process from scratch. It’s less intimidating that way. They realize the counselors are hired by their chabad house. Very different vibe than coming in as a stranger and seeing it all in wonder.

This isn’t really about camp
May 4, 2023 8:12 am

Many Frum kids have no derech eretz period. In fact, non-Frum kids are almost always more mature than their Frum peers.

For those of you making public school comparisons, I can promise you that the bullying that exists in our yeshivos rivals that of ANY public school. At least in public school if a kid gets beaten up the police get involved.

Reply to  This isn’t really about camp
May 4, 2023 2:43 pm

My grandchild went to two camps last summer. first a day camp, then an overnight for the second month. Asked to compare the experiences, our frum grandchild replied that there were bullies in both camps.

We need to re-think how we approach Judaism
May 4, 2023 4:26 pm

We spend years teaching our children the small details of halacha, we spend energy creating lectures and programs to discuss marriage, fertility, dating… but when has there ever been an event centered around the importance of derech eretz. Why are boys learning how to slaughter a goat when they don’t care to stand up when a Rabbi/Rebbetzin enters a room? Why are girls learning to wear tights in the heat of the summer when they don’t care enough to move to the side of the sidewalk when a parent with a stroller is trying to maneuver their way around? We… Read more »

Afraid not!
May 26, 2023 4:19 am

“Kids will be kids” certainly is not an excuse! I have seen boys from frum families act respectfully, but I have seen more act disrespectfully. Where does this come from? Are they unable to assimilate? Do they feel entitled? Do they get confused by expectations? Do they themselves feel disrespected by the others? Do they feel embarrassed?
Isn’t it high time there is an honest humble discussion with those involved, maybe with a non-biased facilitator who is aware of both vantage points?
This unruliness does not represent well! A Shanda.

Just wondering....
May 26, 2023 4:22 am

How do their parents treat others outside of their community? I hope they are asked if they actually condone this kind of behavior, or even act in the same way.