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Friday, 18 Nisan, 5784
  |  April 26, 2024

The Dangers of Excessive Discipline in Yeshivos

Op-Ed by Moshe Hertz: The strict discipline often imposed in Yeshivos can have negative effects on the mental and emotional well-being of the bochurim, hindering their spiritual growth and connection with Hashem. Full Story

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Bais Schneur
January 2, 2023 2:52 pm

Consider Bais Schneur
They really take this to heart.
Encouraging the boys to be involved and in trying to understand the root if something is not working. Then working on it with the boy together. In general when the boy feels that the Rabbis and staff are on his side a lot of his association with the structure are more positive

Response
Reply to  Bais Schneur
January 3, 2023 3:40 am

A few points to be made 1. If your child isn’t your typical lubavicher bachur we do have great yeshivas as mentioned in the above comment. 2. If however you CHOOSE to send your child to a main stream yeshiva and the rules aren’t for him don’t be frustrated with the punishment “If you can’t pay the time don’t do the crime” 3. And if you say that my Child is a mainstream bochur and still the punishing system is too harsh let me explain to you something that might change your perspective. Have you thought that maybe your child… Read more »

He's not blaming הנהלה he's making a point
Reply to  Response
January 3, 2023 11:00 pm

The idea is that the הנהלה should improve in the above mentioned way for the above mentioned reasons , blaming the הנהלה is not at all the point !

OT Zal
January 2, 2023 3:00 pm

Rabbi N. Deitsch in Oholei Torah zal works with every bochur on their level. He doesn’t use power and control like many hanhalah do. He knows where each bochur is holding and works with them and their abilities. We couldn’t be happier with him. We need more Rabbeim/ Hanhalah like him!

Rabbi Deitsch is amazing
Reply to  OT Zal
January 3, 2023 12:28 am

We also had very very positive experiences with him. BH.

I feel like their needs more discipline
January 2, 2023 3:07 pm

When there is misbehavior from a child there has to be a principle to put the foot down and not let it go. And to put the foot down against the child even if he has a name or the parents are supporting the yeshiva – no excuses or expectations should be made. The child feels hes a higher up and he can do what he wants – absolutely not! On the other side I also agree from the article: when a child is not learning and misbehaving because hes not accomplishing anything and sees that his teachers know it… Read more »

Seems like you have an issue
Reply to  I feel like their needs more discipline
January 2, 2023 3:40 pm

You seem to advocate punishment for those with “the right last name” or finances, but want leniency for others. You also throw in the concept of the teacher not doing their job correctly.
The article is well written and properly suggests working with each individual student to acheive goals and investigate why a student may not be participating in class vs handing out punishments.
I’d like to add that it is not the place of the school (seminary) to “mold” the student. At that age, teach and encourage growth but leave the molding to the parents.

If you want to mistranslate my comment
Reply to  Seems like you have an issue
January 2, 2023 4:00 pm

That’s your issue. I do not pick sides. I pick the side: if something wrong, side with what’s right vs name title or status. Your statement of molding children: it’s the parents job?! Which it is – if the parents give them the proper education. But what really ends up happening is the parents blame the schools. And the children end up doing their own thing and are blamed by the parents and the schools! Talk about adults having issues!

"that it is not the place of the school.."
Reply to  Seems like you have an issue
January 2, 2023 5:35 pm

it is one hundred percent’s the job of our schools to guide are boys. how are parents molding their son when he is living in a dormitory 400 miles away from home? do you think that a yeshiva should not uphold its values? when parents provide their teenage sons with unfiltered access to the internet, do you really think that the parents are actively molding their son in to a healthy adult, let alone a god fearing Jew? do you think there should not be farbrengens where role models speak about what it means to be a chosid? do you… Read more »

Read (think) before you shout
Reply to  "that it is not the place of the school.."
January 3, 2023 3:41 pm

How many boys (our vs. are) go to Seminary? My comment specifically said Seminary.

Feelings
Reply to  I feel like their needs more discipline
January 2, 2023 8:19 pm

You may have those feelings but we have to go with what the Rebbe said. Yemin mekureves

Different Approaches for Different Yeshivos
January 2, 2023 3:21 pm

I think the solution is not every Yeshiva is a fit for every Bochur. I was in Yeshivos where there was very strict hanhala and others where it was more chill. I was more successful in learning and happiness in the stricter Yeshiva. The reason is I lacked the ability to set a good seder and be self motivated as a teenager. When I had accountability I was able to thrive. For example I was in a certain Yeshiva 😉 where if you were later for Chasidus in the morning you were locked in the dorms until maybe lunch (or… Read more »

What's best for the majority?
Reply to  Different Approaches for Different Yeshivos
January 2, 2023 5:57 pm

I learned in the same Yeshiva that you refer to. Whilst I consider myself to have worked out OK, I wouldn’t be able to say the same about many others. Even myself, I learnt there for three years and thought I was happy as I didn’t know any better. The next Yeshiva I went to however, was an absolute game changer! I was able to learn because I wanted to learn and not because because I was petrified of repercussions! I spent three years of my six years in Yeshiva, doing relatively well, because I was afraid to do otherwise.… Read more »

valid
Reply to  What's best for the majority?
January 2, 2023 6:44 pm

that yeshiva is a wonderful place for people who thrive in said environment.
who share values before they go to the yeshiva.
not for guys who want to go there to turn into something they are not.

Yoel
January 2, 2023 3:34 pm

Spare the rod > spoil the child

ridiculous article
January 2, 2023 4:29 pm

children don’t know how to behave in the world. education is guiding them in their behavior. teenagers make an incredible amount of stupid decisions and need constant guidance in how to act. not enforcing rules makes rules a joke. our generation is lazy and entitled on a record level. modern students have zero tolerance for constructive criticism. they need someone to tell them how to live because they cant construct a full philosophy of how to act in the world by themselves. people who don’t have religious trauma would have some other ism as the cause of their trauma if… Read more »

I mean no disrespect…
Reply to  ridiculous article
January 2, 2023 5:47 pm

However, youre unaware of people outside of Lubavitch. Many Modern orthodox or even not Frum children l’havdil are far far more well adjusted than some of the children in our communities. They’re happier, smarter, more well behaved, etc.

You’re ignorant to think that people are fabricating trauma or just using their Frum/yeshiva experience as an excuse. There are people in the Lubavitch system who were abused for years and sometimes decades. I’m very happy that you made it out fine, but a lot of people unfortunately do not. People like you who deny it all make it worse.

ridiculous article
Reply to  I mean no disrespect…
January 2, 2023 6:38 pm

I’m not advocating for child abuse. I’m not saying that we don’t have problems. I am saying that every system and community does have problems. if you grew up chabad, you prob only saw the best part of the communities that you engaged with. how much of the ugly underbelly of other Jewish communities did you see? did you see the rate of people in boro park go to prison vs. CH? do you know about the mass level chilul Shabbos going on in Lakewood and other litvshe communities? how do you know that these other groups are “smarter”? I’m… Read more »

I’m sorry, no.
Reply to  ridiculous article
January 2, 2023 10:15 pm

Not only are you wrong in your comparisons, but your so called “classic” values are newfangled and not classic at all. Is embarrassing children classic? Is being so inflexible with minhagim and chumras that people have to stop following the actual halakha classic? I think not.

stam a jew
Reply to  I’m sorry, no.
January 3, 2023 10:25 pm

Why are you mixing in personal feelings and opinions on how people uphold minhagim into a semi intellectual argument

It's time....
Reply to  I mean no disrespect…
January 10, 2023 8:10 pm

….to take a sincere look at the Lubavitch punishment administered by some of the rabbim. In general, it does not convey love and understanding of a child. And specifically it does damage the neshama on some level. Some adults treat kinderlach as they were treated without having the self awareness as to how it affected them! It’s time.

Progressive...
Reply to  ridiculous article
January 2, 2023 5:49 pm

Wow u must be fun at parties

The Yeshiva system needs a total makeover!!!
Reply to  ridiculous article
January 2, 2023 6:10 pm

So you are giving people the right to damage kids??? Humiliate kids??? All in the name of discipline??? Harshness doesn’t work in the long run. I’ve been teaching in classroom for last 30 years. It is important to have rules. It’s important to enforce the rules from a place of love. There is too much Gevurah in the Yeshiva system. When children feel loved they will res the rules.

look at you tough guy.
Reply to  ridiculous article
January 2, 2023 7:34 pm

State your name coward

lovey dove
January 2, 2023 4:35 pm

פרק מ”א תניא: ברם, צריך להיות לזכרון תמיד ראשית העבודה ועיקרה ושרשה. והוא, כי אף שהיראה היא שרש ל״סור מרע״ והאהבה ל״ועשה טוב״, אף־על־פי־כן, לא די לעורר האהבה לבדה ל״ועשה טוב״, ולפחות צריך לעורר תחלה היראה הטבעית המסותרת בלב כל ישראל, שלא למרוד במלך מלכי המלכים הקדוש־ברוך־הוא

arguing that our service of god should be based on love is not a Jewish idea.

context
Reply to  lovey dove
January 2, 2023 6:05 pm

context

i could also post another part of tanya

lovey dove
Reply to  context
January 2, 2023 6:40 pm

be my guest
go ahead
in chabad we say this part of tanya everyday before we daven
this is not pulling on some obscure source
its well known

A more mature learning
Reply to  lovey dove
January 2, 2023 8:33 pm

Learn the entire perek by heart; it’s fundamental. I learn it every day as a way to help with yiras shamayim which is something I’ve always struggled with. It took decades and during a particularly difficult time in my life, where I focused on the culmination of this idea (it’s about half way through the perek). The Alter Rebbe explains that the way to achieve this yirah is through hisbonnonus on the gadlus of the borei olem. The Alter Rebbe ends with if someone does this and tries as hard as he can to cultivate the yira and it doesn’t… Read more »

lovey dove
Reply to  A more mature learning
January 2, 2023 10:02 pm

my point was not that fear of god should be through fear of staff members of our yeshivas/
my point is that fear of god is a non debatable truism in how we view the proper method of serving god,

A more mature learning
Reply to  lovey dove
January 3, 2023 6:37 am

Oy, please learn the perek by heart , and use some real yegia. Abba and Ima, Ahavas *and* Yiras Hashem. Do you advocate the best upbringing for a child is in a single parent home?!? Why are you focused on one as “fear of god is a non debatable truism in how we view the proper method of serving god”?!? (sic. At least use a capital G when referencing Hashem) If anything, the single style you advocate already existed with the musser movement, what need is there for chasidus in this narrow framework of taking a snippet of Tanya and… Read more »

@context
Reply to  context
January 2, 2023 6:49 pm

how is this out of context?

To simply quote a piece of Tanya...
Reply to  @context
January 2, 2023 8:50 pm

to make a specific point, is intellectually faulty unless you make the required connection crystal clear. Example: When the Rebbe said at the very first Farbrengen that everything is dependent on the three Loves. Would you have protested “Lovey dove”? When Hillel said That LOVE your fellow Jew IS the basis of our holy Torah and everything else is commentary would you have protested “Lovey dove”? Today’s kids need emphasis on love and respect with only a sprinkle of discipline. They don’t need you ramming perek 41 down their throats. Its ALL part of Torah but you need the wisdom… Read more »

Feelings
Reply to  lovey dove
January 2, 2023 8:25 pm

You are conflating awe of Hashem with fear of yeshiva punishments that have nothing to do with Hashem.
Look at how the Rebbe wanted Tzivos Hashem to work…you only go up in rank, not down if you miss. That’s how we should model our educational system.

Fearing Gd or Man?
Reply to  lovey dove
January 2, 2023 8:48 pm

Perek 41: talks about fearing Hashem.

You: advocate fearing man.

The article’s author: suggests that love among people might create an environment from which one might learn to fear, or better said, fear and revere Gd.

Seems like you went to a yeshivah that might have conflated Gd with man and man with Gd.

Your comment betrays more than just a faulty understanding of Tanya, especially chapter 32 which compels one to mekarev one’s fellow בחבלי עבותות אהבה, but also a broken sense of chassidus and ahavas yisroel more broadly.

lovey dove
Reply to  Fearing Gd or Man?
January 2, 2023 10:06 pm

again my point was not to mix fear of god with fear of man.
its an argument against the premise of the article that our generation should be shielded from the judging side of Judaism.
I’m not arguing for staff members to treat themselves as god. I am arguing that we should not lower our expectations or standards part of that being that we should clearly give over to our student’s in a healthy way that we should fear god.

To lovey dove
Reply to  lovey dove
January 10, 2023 8:13 pm

It’s not Jewish idea?! We are talking about our children!

The Yeshiva system needs a total makeover!!!
January 2, 2023 4:39 pm

Thank you for writing this Op-Ed in such an eloquent way. Here is a letter I wrote about the situation with yeshivos…… “The principal hid in the closet in my dorm room so he could listen in on our conversations” “My principal has cameras in his office. When my teacher wanted to speak with me privately, we had to hide in a spot that the principal’s cameras don’t reach” “My principal yelled at me in front of my friends and called me a thief” “My principal accused me of doing something I didn’t do and when I defended myself he… Read more »

I applaud you for speaking out👏👏👏
Reply to  The Yeshiva system needs a total makeover!!!
January 2, 2023 5:22 pm

Suggestion: if you can tell your friends, place your trust in Hashem and our Rebbe. Humans – their way of life is totally uncalled for. And I’m saying humans which they shouldn’t be referred to as at all! But Hashem and our Rebbe are eternal. Daven to Hashem for Hashem sake, learn and connect to our Rebbe for our Rebbes sake. Than it’s a whole new way of looking at life. Make YOUR life, dont allow people to destroy it forever. Try as much as you can to rebuild after they destroyed. Its tough but if you believe it, you… Read more »

ummmm
Reply to  The Yeshiva system needs a total makeover!!!
January 2, 2023 6:08 pm

as a student i can confidently say that half of the info is missing from these ‘personal accounts’. there r two sides to every story and in MANY (not all) cases the student is part of the issue.
time to start taking things w a grain of salt

Really?
Reply to  ummmm
January 3, 2023 6:47 am

Confidently??? Really?? So you say it’s okay for children to be yelled at? It’s okay for educators to humiliate students? It’s okay to accuse kids of things instead of taking them into the office and listening to their side of the story and treating them with dignity? It’s okay to be abusive? Regardless of what a child does, there needs to be a basic level of humanity. חינוך begins with role modeling, unless you agree with a Greek philosopher who told his students:”Do as I say, don’t do as I do”. There is no other side of the story when… Read more »

The system doesn't need to change
Reply to  The Yeshiva system needs a total makeover!!!
January 2, 2023 8:48 pm

More options must be included. How many bochurim are compelled to attend yeshiva because their parents don’t want to deal with the shame of their son dropping out? A new track is required for bochurim who intend to refrain from participating in shlichus or chinuch. This could bring in more money for the community and save many of our fellow parents hundreds of thousands of dollars. It may also help bochurim begin work earlier while remaining satisfied with the community’s general chinuch. Once the aforementioned is established, shpitz rosh yeshivos can be as strict with their students as they please… Read more »

As a "bochur" who is no longer in yeshivah I agree
Reply to  The Yeshiva system needs a total makeover!!!
January 11, 2023 12:03 pm

I’ve personally spoken to different hanholas and people who no how the human mind works and it pains me that in lubavitch today we aren’t seen as individuals, rather as a collective group called “bachurim”. when you ask people why CTeen makes a whole event they answer “because their teens!”, frum boys are still teenagers and require the same care and attention and unfortunately today we don’t receive it and its literally a matter of life and death as I friends who thought about suicide due to the circumstances. Before ignoring what i have to say and quoting the “rebbe”… Read more »

LA Morah
January 2, 2023 4:43 pm

There’s much more disconnection and disfunctionality in our times. This means many bochrim and students bichlal need discipline but also genuine connection and warmth.

“Practically speaking, when a teacher shows trust
January 2, 2023 4:53 pm

Once you write that, you’re clearly announcing to the public that you haven’t the slightest clue about what goes on in a classroom, kudos to you’re public display of lack in basic knowledge-aka the very unknown concept of “Yetzer harah”- and natural sometimes negative tendencies.

Facts!

I won’t speak lashon hara af zich, but not every teenage boy needs opportunities to let their Yetzer Harah thrive. I wouldn’t be as harsh on the author though, it’s an important point to be made for some bochurim. Also I think when you say classroom it sounds like you’re talking about Cheder more than Yeshiva. Honestly, Cheder is a much more difficult problem to solve than Yeshiva, which is why I never went into Chinuch… What do you do with a chutzpenyak? The problem is every boy is different and it’s a very difficult job to know what they… Read more »

PERL ARBOR
January 2, 2023 4:55 pm

MANY HANHOLAS AND MELAMDIM, MASHPIEM UNFORTUNATELY SUFFER FROM MENTAL, EMOTIONAL, AND DEPRESSION ISSUES AND BRING ALL THIS BAGGAGE TO THEIR RESPECTIVE YESHIVAS. BEFORE ANY ONE TAKES ON THE JOB OF MENAHAL RUCHNI OR GASHMI, LOOK YOURSELVES IN THE MIRROR AND ASK THIS SIMPLE QUESTION…. AM I FIT AND SUITED TO BE A MELAMED OR MENAHEL OR MASHPIA OR IS HAVING A GHEZE NAME SIMPLY THE ONLY PASSPORT YOU NEED TO FILL THAT ROLE. PERHAPS ITS TIME TO BRING IN FRUM TRIED AND TESTED PSYCHIATRISTS TO EXAMINE THE MENTAL STATE OF THOSE APPLYING FOR THESE POSITIONS IN CHINUCH TO SEE IF… Read more »

excuse me
Reply to  PERL ARBOR
January 2, 2023 5:23 pm

do you have even one example of a staff member in a chabad mesivta or zal who neglected or abused any talmidim because of they’re emotional or mental health issues?

Why?
Reply to  excuse me
January 2, 2023 7:34 pm

Did the truth hurt so bad that you even had to ask that question? Does it have to happen to your child and then you’ll get the answer? If you’ve been in the yeshiva system you perfectly know shes right! Every single one of them has mental health going on – because like a student told me at 7 years old “morah why in every situation something ALWAYS GOES WRONG?!” At 7! Yes children see!

david
Reply to  excuse me
January 2, 2023 8:09 pm

dont,teach,English,math,thus,its,abuse

To excuse me
Reply to  excuse me
January 10, 2023 8:20 pm

Not talking about abuse or neglect because of emotional or mental health problems, talking about abuse or neglect creating emotional or mental health problems.

excuse me
Reply to  PERL ARBOR
January 2, 2023 5:24 pm

also do you think writing your comment in all caps would make people take you more seriously?

What world do you live in?
Reply to  PERL ARBOR
January 2, 2023 7:40 pm

I’m wondering if you ever met any mashpi’im, maggidei shiurim, or hanhala of any yeshiva.
It sounds like you’re quoting from the New York Times- which looks at all Rabbi’s with long white beards as unfit educators.

Stam Lehair
Reply to  PERL ARBOR
January 2, 2023 7:44 pm

It is hard enough to find Hanhala as it is, now you want them to have to undergo a psychological evaluation? That will turn off the last few candidates…

True
Reply to  PERL ARBOR
January 2, 2023 8:39 pm

That’s a really good point. There was/is such taboo on admitting or even researching one’s own potential mental illness, that instead of getting help, many doctors and other accomplished people CH”V take their own lives. Read “An Unquiet Mind.” The community needs to embrace and support those with mental health issues, not just young people, but adults, teachers, principals, etc. People that are not on their meds, who don’t even know they need to be on meds, can be unimaginably cruel and could easily destroy young (and not young) people. Please Hashem help! We demand Moshiach now!

Lol!
Reply to  PERL ARBOR
January 2, 2023 9:03 pm

You speak about all hanhola members not being well emotionally. You then write it in all caps, the ultimate sign of a well balanced and emotionally healthy individual.

Watch out!
Reply to  PERL ARBOR
January 3, 2023 2:38 am

Your caps lock is on!

It’s not limited to Yeshivos
January 2, 2023 5:35 pm

People complying with the rules outwardly isn’t limited to Yeshiva. As a community, we give preference to people who LOOK the part rather than people who live it. In Lubavitch we’re very used to people who look Frum but aren’t. Let’s stop making assumptions about people and causing this to occur.

Axe to grind
Reply to  It’s not limited to Yeshivos
January 3, 2023 2:48 am

Seems like a personal issue unrelated to this article. Look, the emes is only the aybershter knows who’s “frum”, but there’s a reason why Chasidim look like they’re wearing a uniform… Both can be true. Levush is obviously nowhere near as important as even a davar kalah m’divrei sofrim, but it’s not meaningless. When I’m in the hospital and I see someone wearing a doctor’s coat I’m more likely to trust their medical opinion. Obviously wearing a coat is nothing compared to going to medical school etc. and there could be an imposter wearing a coat who hasn’t gone to… Read more »

Problem with articles like these...
January 2, 2023 6:10 pm

The problem with articles like this one is that those who need to read them never see them. Its those hanhollos who dont have Internet are oblivious to the damage they have done (and רחמנא ליצלן continue to do) over the years, All in the name of kedusha. In some cases tragically, this lack of awareness of what goes on in the world stretches on to what goes on in their own lives where their own untreated issues of anxiety/depression/low self-image/anger manifest in “strict rules” וכדומה, inflicting damage on delicate pure נשמות. A member of hanhola who is healthy בנפש… Read more »

Discipline = teaching not punishing
January 2, 2023 6:20 pm

Love this article, this applies to the way we raise all children. Discipline comes from the word disciple, which means to teach, not punish. No one learns from punishment, they may temporarily be manipulated into submission, but in the long run you are doing more harm then good. In order to be able to teach and influence someone you need to have a good relationship with them, and punishment undermines a good relationship. Maintaining a good relationship, collaborating, and empathizing, are all keys to raising a healthy and happy child, who will be more willing to listen to you.

An outsider
January 2, 2023 7:01 pm

As one who is a frum heimish Jew in Brooklyn some of the complaints can be found among almost all groups. To get a good rebbe you need to pay him on time. It’s a problem. A rebbe needs to be tolerant with lots of patience and idealism. He must believe in the potential of every student. If he is not paid normal and behind in his living expenses he can’t be relaxed. It’s a vicious cycle. Also today’s kids are way ahead of the adults. With technology they know the ins and outs of the system. If they see… Read more »

PERL ARBOR
January 2, 2023 7:19 pm

#excuse me

You just did!

PERL ARBOR
January 2, 2023 7:27 pm

# excuse me
Hello? emotional abuse of a child is what this article is all about!

mechanchim not realizing they are making unrealistic demands on a child or bochur because he can’t keep up with peers, or worse throwing them out of yeshiva or not accepting them in the first place while their peers are accepted, is abuse!

It is also abuse
Reply to  PERL ARBOR
January 2, 2023 9:01 pm

If parents set their sons up for failure, if you are aware that your son prefers to binge-watch Netflix, is illiterate, or has emotional damage. Why would you send him to Zal? You are obviously putting your son in a position to fail while raising him to hate both you and the yeshiva system.

100% correct
Reply to  It is also abuse
January 2, 2023 10:16 pm

There are many parents these days who like to educate their children in the ‘progressive’ way (which means letting them do whatever they want) and then they get smartphones at 10 or 12 years old, and these kids obviously watch movies all day and play game on it (because what else does a kid that age have an interest in when his parents are busy all day) and then these develop an addiction to their smartphone, but then they are shipped to yeshiva- and their parents will let them bring their smartphone to yeshiva (‘progressive’ education) and then it all… Read more »

Check your facts
Reply to  100% correct
January 4, 2023 3:46 am

Progressive does not equal smartphones with no filter. That’s closer to being called neglect.

'progressive'= neglect
Reply to  Check your facts
January 4, 2023 7:43 pm

Hate to break it to you, but ‘progressive’ means specifically NOT going in the traditional path, rather breaking away and doing something more ‘modern’ and ‘appropiate’ for today’s generation, which includes for many of these people no filters or a very basic filter because anything more than that is too ‘rigid’ for our times. I personally know many people who grew up with a smartphone/ipod touch and they definitely spent lots of time on it playing games and watching movies (even if they had a filter). Besides, why would any parent give their children such a device at such a… Read more »

Thank you
January 2, 2023 9:23 pm

Thank you for creating the impetus for change in our system. My son was broken by our broken system. It deeply saddens me as I chose this way of life based on the principles I learned from the Rebbe’s teachings. I was so inspired I went on shlichus to a place where my children didn’t have a school. In the end I uprooted and sent my son to a school only to be excluded, humiliated and broken from their “discipline.” It’s really not ok and I deeply hope all schools can reasses their system and aline it with the Rebbes… Read more »

aye1
January 2, 2023 9:45 pm

I had a very difficult time in yeshivah because nobody ever explained to me how to navigate Gemorrah. I need specific instructions about grammar rules and word derivatives and definitions – especially Aramaic – to make sense of a text. I felt like a total failure and fraud because, even though I was present in Zal every day, sitting and learning all day long, I actually accomplished very little. I managed – on my own time – to navigate Tanach , Chassidus and Shulchan Aruch pretty well because I loved that material much more than Gemorrah, and also because I… Read more »

Nonsense
January 2, 2023 10:08 pm

“when a teacher shows trust in, and love for, his students, discipline problems usually do not arise” This is not true. Discipline is always needed in order to maintain a healthy society. Tomchei Temimim has always had strong discipline standards, and not because hanhala didn’t love the bochurim ch”v. This claim that love is a complete substitute for discipline is made by no one but bochurim who don’t like getting punished (or else what would be the point?) and inspiration speakers who didn’t step into the world of practical chinuch. I turn to any parents who agreed with this article… Read more »

A different perspective
Reply to  Nonsense
January 3, 2023 8:45 am

True that if children do dangerous things you have to stop them, but if a child spills a cup of milk or forgets to make a bracha on their food, are you going to react the same way? That’s what I believe that author is trying to say. There are too many Yeshivas that treat the spilled cup of milk like running around with a knife. Yet even when you run after the kid running in the street, if he feels you love him, at the end of the day he will know it’s coming from love and accept your… Read more »

Hungry and Tired
January 2, 2023 10:45 pm

I was always hungry (for food) and tired in yeshiva. I slept through many of my classes. even the ones I didn’t I did not do my best. No one is the Yeshiva system cared to find out. Needless to say. I will not be sending my children to such a yeshiva.

Girls don't exist
January 2, 2023 11:45 pm

I searched for the word “girl” in the article and comments. No luck. Wouldn’t it be nice to be able to care, and have this conversation, about our girls as much as boys? They are also being emotionally and spiritually damaged by heavy-handed discipline every day in the schools. It may not take the same form, but it’s just as dangerous to their connection to Chassidishkeit and Yiddishkeit. Even if we made chinuch perfect for our boys, they still have to marry our girls. A Yiddishe heim cannot be built with a weak foundation from either side.

No girls mentioned
Reply to  Girls don't exist
January 3, 2023 12:41 am

A male knows about boys schooling. A Woman needs to write about girls schooling. I know from my kids that you can’t compare the two.

The one year of Seminary?
Reply to  Girls don't exist
January 3, 2023 5:50 am

Boys spend 8 years plus in the yeshiva system where there is a lot more abuse than in elementary school and high school.

A different perspective
Reply to  Girls don't exist
January 3, 2023 8:53 am

As an educator and a parent of both boys and girls, I believe that the the reason girls are not mentioned is because theproblem is much greater in the boys system. There will never be a perfect system as long as we are in golus, yet if the boys system learns discipline from the girls system we will be in much better shape. From my experience there is a systematic problem by the boys whereas by the girls it is more individualistic and I’ve never encountered the horrific verbal and emotinal abuse that goes on by the boys in the… Read more »

Don’t worry, girls get their fair share!
Reply to  A different perspective
January 3, 2023 11:33 am

Even if he girls system is better, girls do get emotionally damaged in their system!
its not like the girls mechanchos are any better than those hanhalim out there

It’s all about the parents
January 3, 2023 2:32 am

Parents need to respect their children

Funny
Reply to  It’s all about the parents
January 3, 2023 11:04 am

Because Torah says the opposite

Validation
January 3, 2023 4:54 pm

A thought: What bochurim (and in fact any person in the world) needs is Validation. In previous comments, people mentioned how students were turned off by the punishment and harsh attitude from the menahel etc. When bochurim are being educated in Yeshivah, each one is an “oilam molei” a world of it’s own, and they all need their own attention, What a bochur really want to know, is that he’s being validated and acknowledged, and when he is shown or picks up on that, and see’s how the the discipline is coming out of care, then the effects will be… Read more »

We need the proper balance
Reply to  Validation
January 3, 2023 6:51 pm

It’s very nice to give our children validation- it’s definitely necessary in order to give them a proper chinuch. On the other hand, too much validation (as in whatever you do is alright as long as you don’t jump off a roof) is very harmful to our children, as this teaches them a lack of boundaries, which unfortunately very often leads them to eventually drop their frumkeit being that they look at the entire frum establishment as too rigid. Simply put, when you spoil your children, they always want more. And when you reach the line where you won’t give… Read more »

Discipline MUST be out of LOVE for the bochur!!
January 3, 2023 5:41 pm

Something that definitely needs to be done in yeshivos (and girl schools/sem too!) is discipline, otherwise how will the bochurim listen to you? They will just do what they want as though life is one big party. But a very important point that is being missed out and causing all of these issues is that this must be done out of LOVE, and NOT just because the school rules say that you get punished if you do xyz. Especially when they are so far from home and need more attention and love shown to them then ever. If more hanhalim,… Read more »

Simple New System
January 3, 2023 7:03 pm

I saw a comment say “if you can’t follow the rules of a mainstream yeshiva, go somewhere else!” And I do love that there are alternative yeshivahs, but I think the mainstream yeshivahs need a serious update. The main issue, in my opinion, is that the aren’t any milestones or goals. Whether you learn well or not, it doesn’t really matter. As long as you’re coming on time (so that you don’t get a knas), and not doing anything goyish (reading non-Jewish books, listening to goyish music and watching goyish movies), you can coast through seven years of 14 hour… Read more »

Good point
January 3, 2023 10:50 pm

Very well said , I myself have experience this as a bucher and I thank you for bringing up this point!

Some teachers
January 22, 2023 3:22 am

have lost their hearts. Probably some of their teachers had lost theirs. The cycle continues. What a shanda,

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