By anonymous
Before beginning, I would like to clarify that this is not intended whatsoever to Ch”V bash or speak disparagingly about anyone. It is for the sole purpose of educating families involved in shidduchim about what are some of the unspoken happenings behind the shidduch scene.
Being married only a few years myself, I am well aware both from my own experience, as well as those of my friends, the tales of wows and woes throughout the dating process.
Over those few years, there was one scenario that would often repeat itself, one that would add much unnecessary stress to an already stressful endeavor. With this in mind, I would like to describe what this scenario is, and how it can best be dealt with.
Case in point: Bochur is flying in to meet your daughter.
From the bochur’s perceptive: Not quite so simple. Dating out-of-town presents its own unique set of challenges that are often overlooked, that with a bit of awareness and preparation need not be so challenging.
1 – Express appreciation: Make it a point to communicate to your daughter, that the Bochur is putting in a lot of effort to come. He is flying in, which includes airfare, Uber’s, luggage whatnot, and to just say “Thank you” for making the effort to come.
In addition, there is the matter of time between dates. Spending full days in someone else’s home or wherever it may be, isn’t quite so pleasant. Many Bochurim wind up feeling hurt that the energy they invested to come out there was not acknowledged, and will at times unfortunately affects the Shidduch, it simply comes across as insensitive.
It used to be, that most Bochurim were learning in Yeshiva, while the girls were mostly working, nowadays it’s very different. Many Bochurim have jobs as well, and so for them to take off work is obviously difficult, from requesting time off to finding a substitute, it’s a hassle. So please, just a “Thank you” and a bit of recognition for the effort made, would be great.
2 – Financial assistance: To parents; consider chipping in for the Bochurs flight expenses. It’s no secret that as many parents have expressed, the time has come for the entire dating expense to be an equal split. Perhaps a step in that direction that could be, that whenever the Bochur is flying in, offer to contribute toward the ticket. There are already quite a few families that do help with airfare, but it’s got to become more of a trend.
3 – Being thoughtful: When a Bochur flies to a city or state that he isn’t from, he generally will not have an easy time finding a place to stay, eat, go to Mikvah, Daven, etc. as he likely knows no one from there. Chances are however, that the girl’s family does. It is therefore surprising to hear how many times Bochurim fly out for a few days, have a difficult time locating a Minyan and Mikva and end up eating all three meals in cafes and restaurants. I doubt that this is done intentionally, which is why I am writing this.
Dear Parents, please try to find out if the Bochur has a place to stay, knows his way around, or simply needs some meals or food for his flight. These are just a few simple acts that can really make a world of a difference. The same would apply even if the Bochur is flying into Crown Heights, as not everyone has friends and family that can host them.
4 – There is a concept in Shidduchim that many Shadchonim like to share, “Unless you are certain that this Bochur/Girl isn’t meant for you, always meet a second time”. Especially, say the Shadchonim, “When the bochur flies in, it is only menchlich that you make his time and effort worthwhile by going out twice”. While this piece of advice is usually very helpful, girls and Bochurim alike, sometimes take it a bit too literal. They do just that, go out a second time…no talking, no smiling, no questions, no answers, just a car ride to the hotel and back. The most unmenchlich, uncomfortable and awkward thing possible Why? All in the name of Menchlichkeit and sensitivity. It is just so backwards.
Here is what can be done:
1 – Explain clearly what the goal of this second date is – and isn’t. It is to actually try and see if I like this person and want to marry them, by which the accepted method of doing so is by engaging the other in conversation. It isn’t a Leshem Mitzvas Pegisha and not to just be yotzeh being polite and then “Good bye Charlie”.
2 – If the Bochur or girl feel that they aren’t remotely interested in pursuing this shidduch any longer, better drop it now than give the other person an undesirable time. However the latter suggestion will need to take openness, honesty and a pressure free environment, which I suppose we can save for another Op-ed.
To conclude with Hakoras HaTov, there are families, whom when a Bochur came to meet their daughter, went above and beyond to make him feel welcome. Here are some of the things they did; Arranged a place to stay, gave him a list of the local Mikvahs, Shuls and minyonim times, as well as local supermarkets and places to eat. In the morning they left a bag of bakery goods and snacks at the home he was staying. They also offered a list of ideas of places where he can date.
I have no doubt that many would appreciate it, if a similar article was written about what others “What I Wish He Knew.”
Thank you for shedding light where some may not have noticed the lack before which can and I’m sure will make dating a more pleasant experience, ultimately for both.
Well said
I’m so glad this is being brought up, it’s about time that girls finally show some sort of investment.
All they have to do is look pretty and show up, not the case no more!
It’s time to get their act together!
Once I started dating shadchanim quickly told me it was a boys market. I spent hundreds of dollars flying in to CH , taking off of work etc.
so , I agree that in general boys invest more , however things are changing and now girls have to travel to bochurim a lot more
Are obviously feeling quite resentful. Don’t put that on girls you date.
To the point and helpful point of view
Parents should pay for their childrens’ dating expenses, period. Per our tradition, It is the responsibility of parents to marry off their children. I understand that there are exceptions, such as when parents are living in abject poverty or when their child is already older in their 30’s, but in the majority of cases the parents should pay. This applies EVEN if the child is working and making more money than the parents. It is still the PARENTS expense to bear. Also, to the author: in certain circumstances, one need not actively seek out a minyan or mikvah. You should… Read more »
if the child is working, and can suport humself, for what reason the parents have to pay his or her expenses for dating etc.
the parents are not slaves for the rest of ther lives to the children.
if the child cant confront this cost, defently the parents will help with a smile and jow,
but to say it is a obligation to mony to a rich child that has all he needs and more. that is nonsence.
If a bachur is working and earns as much or more than the parents, that money isn’t going to tuition, clothes, food and rent for another 10+ kids. Why shouldn’t a bachur spare his parents one more burden on their shoulders?
I can’t see how parent would want any of those guys, who feel they are entitled to date their daughter.
Next you would expect to them to pay for your living expenses, your 10 years in post secondary education.
They can’t buy you work ethic.
Needs to be earned
We learn this from Avrohom Avinu. He still had to take a vested interest and found Yitzchak a wife etc. I remember learning this lesson in school that no matter how old the child is, the parent’s are still responsible and should take a vested interest and financial responsibility in their lives.
Wow!! So true…
Thank you for someone speaking up… This is great advice that should have been posted ages ago. Buchorim do in fact have some challenges in shidduchim when it comes to arranging dates and always have to be the one flying in and it’s about time someone recognized that.
This is a wonderful article. Positive and very sensible. Your points are meaningful and give practical suggestions to ease the process and Tempe some of the wear and tear of shleping.
One point is that this will also help with the shidduch itself, since a bochur will be in a better headspace and more fit for meeting. Ie. He will be well rested and cared for. Ali vhatzlichi
Thank you for taking the time to write this. I will no longer allow my sons to travel. Let the girls side contribute & be invested. Each date cost the boys parents a small fortune if you add in travel expenses, eating out, car rentals for duration of stay it’s crazy. This while the girls side invests nothing. Your suggestions would at least show appreciation & menchlichkeit & even if the shidduch didn’t work the boy would definitely remember & perhaps pass the suggestion on. With regard to “must do 2nd date” this is common without travel. Please girls if… Read more »
Don’t allow your boys to travel. But you’ll be uselessly missing out on opportunities instead of simply asking the shadchan to get info and support from the girls parents. Opting out is not responsible.
Unfortunately, this website has seen a major drought of op-eds in recent times, and it has negatively affected my downtime by taking away one of my favorite pastimes to occupy myself with on the couch while I waste time. This article is a step in the right direction!! Kudos, and may you have a long, fruitful career, with many interesting and controversial op-eds to come!
That isn’t nice at all. People are trying to bring issues that are important to the forefront. Be nice
As an older, and exhausted dater, male, I would say I am frustrated in general, which perhaps can be translated to be frustrated with Hashem, not the women
You make many valid points…. As the mother of girls in this situation, I can honestly say I have done all I can to facilitate “Out of Town” dates- offered to pay for flights/arrange a place to stay/ let the boy know we are available for anything he might need while in our city. However, it was not met with gratitude…Ii was told it is a “slap in the face” to offer to pay for tickets & so unconventional that it scares them off! So while the menchliih thing to do is to treat the boy like a guest, they… Read more »
“However, it was not met with gratitude…Ii was told it is a “slap in the face” to offer to pay for tickets & so unconventional that it scares them off” Sorry, you were treated that way, I personally don’t think that way and would be happy if anyone did that when I was going out. I’d probably thank you for all those who didn’t lol. I wish everyone was like you.
This is so true. Thank you for writing this op-ed. There is an assumption, when it comes to travelling to Crown Heights or NY in general, that there is where to stay. It’s true, a 770 bench is always possible, but for those of us that have a high maintenance need, it isn’t so simple.
Skype or FaceTime aka video chat before traveling and meeting in person. This will save the headaches.
Points well taken.
You failed to mention that a lot of girls fly from out of town to New York for a shidduch. They deserve the same consideration and mentchlichkeit.
A Bochur was flying in from the east coast. That night they went on a date. My daughter came back from the date and firmly stated that this Bochur was no way for her. The frumkite wasn’t a fit , nothing was a fit. What was I going to do with a Bochur ,whos flight back wasn’t until tomorrow night ? The next morning, I woke up my daughter and begged her to take him to an a event of his interest. She did. This date was different. They continued dating. They married. That was over 12 years ago. There… Read more »
But you did put it out there, so I’m left wondering: How did that “The frumkite wasn’t a fit , nothing was a fit” turn out to be otherwise?
And while your story seems to have had a happy ending, or rather beginning, and hopefully will end in 100 years happily, there’s still logic to that if nothing clicks at all, to consider the one date useful and informative, and each to move on elsewhere.
Often first impressions are deceiving. Especially when someone’s flying the real personality doesn’t always show
This couldnt be more accurate for girls too. Because as far as i know, and hear from my friends, its most of the times the girls flying. All of the mentioned above happens to girls too. Who have to leave their jobs, homes, etc. to meet a bochur abroad.
It’s so much better to Skype date before getting on a plane.
If you are expecting recognition/positive feedback… You should not get married or you’re setting yourself up for disappointment.
In most situations the girls fly in to CH. They are told no boys will fly elsewhere when there’s so many girls in CH. You want to date.. so come to CH.
Missing work, losing time, energy and sanity and staying at friends/families or strangers – it’s definitely a big deal for the girls and remember to be as mentchlicht and split tickets etc for them too
First and foremost, I think most Singles going through shidduchim should consider moving to CH for this purpose, but that being said I know so many buchorim who moved to CH so they do not have to keep flying back and forth and yet they still have to fly out when they date girls who aren’t from CH. I do not think there is a single girl who lived in CH who was forced to fly out to date a buchor (I could be wrong). I do not know what you may have experienced. But I can tell you from… Read more »
It is also important to know that the Bochur has probably flown out at time in order to miss the least amount of work. He may arrive very early in the morning to a place he had never stayed before and has to search for food. His date is usually the night he arrives! He may arrive to the date tired, possibly hungry and just not himself.
Please be very sure of your interest in dating this boy ‘before he goes to so much effort and expense.
Making a Bochur or girl have to
Travel to
Go on a date is just lowering your chance of a better shidduch. Parents should encourage their children to
Go to NY. If the boy is working in Chicago. Well just be sure to know your putting your job before your Life. Your shidduch is the most important thing in your life.
You try sitting in ch for years away from family and your own home, in a dingy dark expensive basement with nobody who cares about you and no shabbos meals to go to just so you can eventually get married more easily because after all, you’re in ch
BEST COMMENT.
Such an important subject!
…if the bochur is coming in to the girls hometown, please help him out also in the ‘where to go out to on the date’. It’s just another stress added on to this list….she can help with that
These are the reasons I stopped flying out of town for dates. I moved to CH (didn’t live overly far before) so I could date easier. I still went out of town or paid for the lady to fly here….never worked out well for many of the reasons above. So my mashpia said no more of it.
What is with this generation where girls have to fly to the boys. No boys want to fly out anymore. They dont even offer to pay for the flight. A man should act like a man. Own up to his responsibilities. Yes they can share airfare expenses but the man needs to go to the girl.
The girls shouldn’t be the ones chasing the men.
some things in fact are determined by zeitgeist, even within the torah box. and not all practices fit for all people. so it depends. if the girl presents herself as modern, independent, opinionated, equal-righted, fashion-edged… perhaps along with that comes an equalized dynamic of whoever wants someone strongly enough chases, gender neutralized. no one “should” do anything. And the laws of a nature will have it that values in sync will create matches. if you want your effort of travel to be seen as something to be compensated, and they don’t, you’ll resent it and perhaps things won’t work out.… Read more »
but there’s also an equally logical perspective that someone who is prepared to get married is sufficiently self-sufficient to plan whatever is necessary on a trip, as with any other trip. Do your due diligence in preparation. Why is anyone else’s to “host”? Perhaps, if there develops something serious and potentially matrimonial, could then the local family consider the visitor a guest. At the first shot though, both are very independent parties… I’m not negating any benevolence or hospitality the local family might extend, but this post sounds to me like it should be a responsibility. Or maybe I’m just… Read more »
You are correct it’s a responsibility. But that does not mean that the girls family cannot help in the process or at the very least show appreciation.
So why should the bachelor bother to see the other independent party….?
Obviously there’s the understanding of the need to make the other party FEEL (dating is not a cold process) cared for, regardless if the independent parties decide to go forward with the Shidduch (and it applies vice versa as well).
Amazing article!!! I’m married for 9 years already bH but had gone out many times with many girls before that. I cannot stress enough the first three points of the article! Thank you so much!
A person can always get annoyed that another is not doing what they want. Here’s a peice of advice to the author: Ask for what you need. If you’re visiting a new city for a date and want to know info on minyanim and mikvah locations…… ask!!!
You can live your life expecting everyone to read your thoughts and getting annoyed when they dont or you can simply ask for what you need and leave all the negative emotions out of it. Hatzlacha!
Nothing is every going to happen to you if you spend your time waiting for it. You gotta get out there and do it yourself. Even if it is a bother. Otherwise you will just be waiting forever.
Beautiful article!!
Great article but I think it is the boys responsibility to speak up! Either to the shadchen or to the girls family. Not always do you want to get involved in hos situations you need to speak up.
Everyone should just meet in NY. If the boy/girl is there, that’s where the other party should go.
Asking the parents of the person your going out to help pay for stuff is completely wrong. It shows a lack of responsibility and it shows how incapable the Bochur is. How does he plan on supporting his wife or even a family. Just gonna ask her tatty all the time to help him out?
There are many responsible buchorim who were forced to fly out ( missing work = losing money) to date your daughter which is has a hefty price tag.
Why is it crazy that when a buchor loses a thousand dollars for taking a week off work and then spends an extra $1000 to fly out and date ( flights, Uber to airport, car rental, food etc.) That it’s unreasonable to help him out. If that’s your conclusion you clearly never went through the process.
If the Bochur is making $1000 a week he could definitely afford a flight + car rental or uber. There’s no excuse for him to ask the girls father for compensation to come date his daughter.
The girl deserves a man a Bochur who can look after himself. This shows a lack of respect for the girls parents and a lack of masculinity for the bochur
First of all the 1k was an example… Most guys make less which makes my point even stronger. And you are also assuming that guys only go out once which is not the case. Some buchorim have to go out many times till they meet the one. Overall, between missing work and expenses of traveling and dating, the process can cost buchorim thousands of dollars. Point two: no one is asking anyone for money. The suggestion is purely that if parents of a girl would like to go out of their way to help a buchor and make his experience… Read more »
Newsflash but many bochurim are learning. Not earning. The expenses fall on the boys parents.
This isn’t about being a man it’s about both sets of parents being equally invested in the process.
His parents should pay, and her parents make local arrangements. That’s how it was in the good old days…and no one complained.
Please write more because this can really smooth the process.
However , after years of coaching I have concluded that the MAIN THING IS TO BE ENAMOURED WITH MARRIAGE, N LOVE WITH MARRIAGE ( as Rabbi Friedman points out) and then we OVERCOME ALL DIFFICULTIES AND OBSTACLES . Think of how you learned to drive/ got a degree/ set up your business, got that job… you were so determined to succeed that you DID . You davenned for help and then did everything necessary!
Besoros Tovos
I agree girls who live OOT should be going to places like NY or LA but flying to OOT locations alone can be very dangerous especially is they are unfamiliar with their surroundings. This might be a reason why its not the norm for girls to do the traveling. This may be a dated view but facts have not changed, it is safer for a male to travel alone and they tend to be more used to that from Yeshiva than for girls. Having the girl’s family contribute to hotel expenses when a bochur is flying in would be a… Read more »
I once set up a guy who flew into OOT. He had such a bad attitude because the flight was expensive/ planning dates. He had a place to stay and what to eat. The host even bought him a nice outfit for the dates. Long story short after a week of dating he said he was not interested and complained over the fact that he felt that the girl did not put in enough effort, he wished she would have planned some dates as well. The girl was left heartbroken since she comes from an old fashioned BT conservative family… Read more »
I was about to say that this is the first time I’ve heard of this phenomenon of flying for dates, then remembered my own ‘shidduch’! My now husband (Israeli) saw me on facebook, sent some emails and after 2 months of correspondence hopped on a flight to Europe. Now soon celebrating 5 years of marriage, living in EY with 4 kids (not a typo BH!!). Hashem finds a way to bridge long distances!
Points taken!